hypocrisy in PB media?!

[Baca Loco]

http://www.68caliber.com/features/editorials/story04600.php

Hit the link to check out the Furbinator's opinion. He makes a fair case.
In a nutshell he thinks it's hypocritical of sites--like P8ntballer--to accept advertising from PB businesses who produce highly suspect or outright "illegal" PB equipment. Particularly given this site's tie-in to a major PB magazine. (The product in question, at least in regards this site, is the Advantage board if you failed to notice.)

This is an interesting debate not because it's about an "illegal" board but because it's about what sort of obligation, if any, PB media has to the PB playing public and perhaps even to a wider audience.

My take is any product that isn't really illegal is the okay baseline. And while the Advantage board in many of its intended operating modes is tourney "illegal" the production and sale certainly isn't. So, to my way of thinking what Dale is objecting to is the use the board can be put to but this equally, if less effectively, applies to lots of other common PB products including most if not all of the high end markers from all the top manufacturers. Where to draw the line? Is accepting advertsing for Angels next 'cus they can easily be set-up to operate in tourney "illegal" mode?

The next consideration might be how the majority of your current and prospective customers view the advertising. Some time ago there was consideration given to accepting airsoft ads in PGI and the rank and file here at P8ntballer were asked what they thought of the idea. They hated it and, partly based on the overwhelming dislike of that idea, you've not seen airsoft ads in PGI as a result.

Just some thoughts. So what's your take? The manufacturers say it's the players responsiblity and the players say it's the promoters problem.

What is PB Media's role in all this?

 

[Cro]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
So what's your take? The manufacturers say it's the players responsiblity and the players say it's the promoters problem.

What is PB Media's role in all this?

Both.

The manufacturers should imho stop making cheat boards, the game is supposed to be skill based and high rof that are achieved legally is a skill that takes practice. If the manufacturers cared enough about the sport, and not just trying to make a buck any where there is an avenue, then they would make there equipment as cheat proof as possible. I know it's business sense to market your product in as many areas as possible, but why can't paintball make a step change from the norm? We are lets face it a specific market and if all the paintball companies went the same way, making only legal equipment, then no one would have a gain over the other except in fair competition of who's got the best all round marker.

The paintball media should also, imho, seriously consider it's position within the sport with regards to letting these cheats boards etc be advertised in their medium. The points above are valid in one way or another for them also, but having said that if a board for eg does have cheat settings, but also has leagl ones too, then why are they any different to markers that have the same?

I personally would like to see the paintball community set a president with regards to cheating, do as much as possible within all sectors of the sport to remove it, we can still have the "grey" areas to play with on the field, saftey for the players and marshalls should not be one to play with.

 

[Matski]

Making cheat boards for paintball dosn't damage it. So long as more money is being spent thats a good thing for the industry, more money for market growth the better. Dye made jerseys with padding in as a selling point, its pretty much the same issue.
The owner of Ryan Air once paid £400 for an ad of the Pope asking god for cheaper tickets, the following public scrutiny gave about £2 million worth of PR advertising.
The PR, Advantage are getting from all this is great, they couldn't pay for this kind of coverage...pgi gonna run an artical next? Meanwhile smart parts fit cheat boards as standard in the Nerve and others add about 28 inches of neoprene to podpacks...

At the end of the day the more manufacturers put on the market, and the more we pay for the better. And even better for PGI to make money off advertising...It's the responsibility of the player, as a 'sportsman', to only use equipment that is legal...Trying to reduce availability to protect precious ethics is bs, pball needs money...you all go moaning about prices yet wanna stop people entering the market, or growing, because their stuff 'might' be used illegally...? Choice is progress.

Paintball players accept cheating as part of the game, I don't believe the majority, with their eyes open, would have an issue with boards being advertised in PGI...

If Advantage were making a board that can ramp dwell, thats a different issue..

 

[Furby]

For the record, I never mentioned AdvantagePB nor P8ntballer.com by name, and any inference is the reader's.

As for the rest, I'll let the editorial stand on its' own.

EDIT ADDED: Quite right. However, upon reading said editorial I don't think it's unfair or unintended that Advantage and P8ntballer are a clear subset of the general complaint but I'm the one who "personalized" it. Besides, nobody I know goes to those other evil PB websites. TFP

HAIRY AMERICAN EDIT: As I said, any inferences made are TFP's and theirs alone. However, I do admit to checking out all the other evil PB Websites in the search for news. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it...

 

[le-pig]

Originally posted by matski

At the end of the day the more manufacturers put on the market, and the more we pay for the better. And even better for PGI to make money off advertising...It's the responsibility of the player, as a 'sportsman', to only use equipment that is legal

.................................................................................................


so when the press get involved because some one gets hurt by a illegal marker that has been advertised by the major pb magazine's/website's,it is going to help how exactly,appart from giving more ammunition to get it banned by the unknowing/caring powers that be

 

[stongle]

Advantage boards are not illegal everywhere. Nuff said resume normal service. Last time I checked, the Major Tournament scene and UK Novice's were NOT the BE ALL and END ALL of Paintball.

This is Tourney Player and UK Novice arrogance yet again (or is it jealousy???). These boards are legal for their target market, infact Paintballs biggest market regardless of what your views are on enhanced rates of fire. Since 90+% of the UK balling population are ever likely to ever play against these boards or Stateside, where's the fire? Even globally what's the percentage of ballers playing the Major's versus Rec or Local Tournaments in the US / World??? Did I miss some form of Coup D'etat? Are the NPPL now the rulers of Global Paintball. Fair enough the want to ban them for their own Tournament, but these are only "Cheater Boards" if used at they're events, elsewhere they are "enhanced ROF" or ramping boards. This is an open board, if the NPPL reps want to discuss the possible dangers of these boards then fine, but it's a bit much to try and place a blanket embargo on their publicity (especially since the board is oft used to push various groups political interests). The only valid argument against these boards is the hidden activation codes (or Child Locks, ever think about it that way), and attempts to disguise the boards functionality. This does suggest at some nefarious usage, but since none of the vociferous have raised this point, one only assumes them to be conceited and narrow-minded.

If you don't like or want to use a product don't buy it. Every 3rd advert on "Council TV" in the UK (i.e. those without SKY), these days is for Tampons, are blokes rushing out and buying these? Cut the mock horror liberal do-gooder crap, it's boring and makes people sound like Middle Aged, Middle Class housewives.

And really, it's not like we need these boards to make our guns add Shots is it? Watch a chrono station closely at any Tournament you go to, and watch the amount of people "ghosting it". That's about the only "skill" I see employed these days.

At the end of the day a good proportion of ballers live in cloud la la land where fiscal realities are concerned. Without the advertising revenue the websites wouldn't exist, and then there would be hardly any advertising of events. How expensive do you think it would be to advertise a Paintball event in the mainstream media? Do you think moderators get paid? Aside from the company Range Rover, we do it for the personal and sick gratification of being annoyingly unpleasant.

 

[garycarrot]

We are trying to get paintball into the "sport" bracket, and this means we will get people trying to get an edge over the competition...by what ever means they can.

The simplest sport is running, just a pair of trainers needed, but look what happens when you can take steriods, your performance gets better. Is it "fair" and "legal"...NO. but it is a fact of life.

Name me a sport where "cheating" does not take place.

What you need is a penalty for cheating, that makes it not worth the chance. And the means to detect the gun cheats.

 

[stongle]

Originally posted by garycarrot
We are trying to get paintball into the "sport" bracket, and this means we will get people trying to get an edge over the competition...by what ever means they can.

The simplest sport is running, just a pair of trainers needed, but look what happens when you can take steriods, your performance gets better. Is it "fair" and "legal"...NO. but it is a fact of life.

Name me a sport where "cheating" does not take place.

What you need is a penalty for cheating, that makes it not worth the chance. And the means to detect the gun cheats.

Not what we or the sport needs at all. Just the events these boards are banned at.

At some tournament these are not "Cheater Boards" at all. Are the rules for NASCAR and F1 the same? No they are not.

Same applies here. If Advantage PB want to put on the Joe Bob Boonie Woodland Ramping Challenge, and allow Enhanced ROFs then they are within their rights to do so (I've not heard them to be against Statute law in the US). Fair enough some tournaments seek to ban them, that is their right, but not everyone chooses to play those events, so why do you all seek to eliminate player choice?

A large number of posters, protested greatly at the business ethics and restrictive practices of SP, this doesn't sound too much different. I mean there's always more than one way to skin a cat as far as business is concerned.

 

[ascutt]

Glen

I totally agree with you, if the intention of these boards was targetted at US Rec-ballers where burst and full auto are allowed. But, and its quite a big but, that is not what this manufacturer is targeting. They specifically offering a product with the sole intention of bypassing tournament rules and providing and unfair and virtually undetectable cheat to players. I think you are being ever so slightly blinkered if you think the 'secret code' activation and the 'one button' deactivation features are not there purely to stop judges enforcing the tournament rules on semi-only firing.
What we are talking about here is totally intentional, pre-meditated cheating and a truely draconian punsihment should be mettered out to anyone caught using one. We are not talking about subjective and debatable bounce here, this is something way more nafarious.

 

[stongle]

Glen

Originally posted by ascutt
I totally agree with you, if the intention of these boards was targetted at US Rec-ballers where burst and full auto are allowed. But, and its quite a big but, that is not what this manufacturer is targeting. They specifically offering a product with the sole intention of bypassing tournament rules and providing and unfair and virtually undetectable cheat to players. I think you are being ever so slightly blinkered if you think the 'secret code' activation and the 'one button' deactivation features are not there purely to stop judges enforcing the tournament rules on semi-only firing.
What we are talking about here is totally intentional, pre-meditated cheating and a truely draconian punsihment should be mettered out to anyone caught using one. We are not talking about subjective and debatable bounce here, this is something way more nafarious.

Quite so, disguising the boards functionality is the genuine issue. Ramping and FA does not automatically equate to cheating, which if you listen to the majority of posters is the general assumption.

If a Tournament series chooses to ban the boards, then that is completely fair enough, even if it means anyone caught with one gets the board smashed in front of em and fined/banned.

The problem is, too many commentators here spout heresy disguised as fact (more often thinly veiled as political agenda pushing). Not everyone who visits the site contributes and if they believed everything they read, well you get the picture. As a media resource this is to be expected, however if we allow everything to go in one direction the world would be a sadder place (and I'd be bored)