Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[Chicago]

Do you really believe this?

Who's going to write the code for all the different guns, and make sure the settings work for all the different guns? No 'one series' of settings will run every gun. No 'one series' of debounce values will work with all mechanical trigger geometries or gun operating systems.

And find me someone with that ability that wouldn't be influenced/corrupted or that isn't linked to a manufacturer or team.

If you can name me anyone who makes electronic chips that isn't linked to a team or manufacturer or similar to the point he would be biased, and that has the skills required, you'll match the one name in my head. And he's busy and expensive, and probably would be hard to get to do it.

And then tell me why it won't make any difference whatsoever because it is so easily circumnavigated by any of the other board manufacturers who already produce cheater equipment.

If you don't take apart every gun running such a chip to inspect it for other electronics, your chip is absolutely useless. Want to know how easy it would be to hid another small chip, purely designed to get around your 'safe' chip? Now that's the trivial part...

Want to inspect every gun? Every time there is a 'concern' on what it is doing?

Heck most events never even find the cheater switches hidden on many guns.

Most events never even check to see that the guns are in tournament locked mode. And you expect them to be sure that only this 'safe' chip is running the gun?

Sorry, but I don't see this idea ever making it. It just doesn't have any basis in reality, even if the idea 'looks good on paper'.

And anyway, what you REALLY need to do is to catch the cheats, and penalise them so it stops it being done at all levels. Some one big needs to get caught and penalised big.

Manike, you're a smart guy, and I really respect you, but I think you're making some assumptions about what I'm proposing that are not accurate.


They key problem is that when we go to test markers, we do not know if the electronics are acting the same way during the test as they were when the marker was in use during the game, because the rules allow the software that runs the marker to be secret.

The principle change I am advocating is banning secret software in tournament markers. Contrary to popular belief, turning trigger events into solenoid movements is not hard. The league, or someone hired by the league, provides a standard software program. This program has various settings so that manufacturers can control how trigger events translate into solenoid movements for their markers. WHAT the settings are is NOT IMPORTANT - having adjustable settings in a software program isn't any different than having adjustable settings in the gun mechanics for gun velocity. What IS important is that:

- You can determine what the settings are
- The program does not allow the settings to be changed between gametime and testing
- You can read the chip to determine that the software on the chip is indeed actual certified software.


Now, you seem to be implying that you won't be able to find anyone you can trust to create this software. Trust is not important, as everybody can look at the source to the software. You don't need to trust the writer because you can look at what they have written and look at what is on the chip.

Now, on the off chance that the standard program can not accomodate a particular marker design, you can allow manufacturers to modify the standard program or create their own program, as long as they make the source available to the league and it meets the requirements of not allowing the settings to be changed on the fly. The only important part is that to be used in a tournament, a gun must use a standard chip, that is readable, that has known, certified software on it.


Once you have software where you KNOW the behavior, you can just test guns the same way we did before the introduction of electronics - if the settings on the gun allow the gun to be fired illegally, you'll be able to test the gun and determine that, because UNLIKE what we have now, where the settings of the software can change without anyone knowing, the KNOWN, READABLE software will behave the same way under test as it did during the game.


I think the 'problems' you're highlighting are based on just having someone write a different secret program that the league then certifies. And you're right, that wouldn't work at all.

 

[Chicago]

If you don't take apart every gun running such a chip to inspect it for other electronics, your chip is absolutely useless. Want to know how easy it would be to hid another small chip, purely designed to get around your 'safe' chip? Now that's the trivial part...

Want to inspect every gun? Every time there is a 'concern' on what it is doing?

Heck most events never even find the cheater switches hidden on many guns.

Most events never even check to see that the guns are in tournament locked mode. And you expect them to be sure that only this 'safe' chip is running the gun?

Sorry, didn't mean to skip this part.

Every sport where equipment plays a large role has equipment inspection procedures. While I agree that paintball has poor procedures now, that doesn't mean we just give up and don't do anything. It means that if we establish certified software, we also need to adopt an inspection regimen. One used in other sports is, if I believe you have illegal equipment, I put up some collateral, say, $100, to have your equipment checked. If your equipment is found to be illegal, I get my money back, and you get sanctioned. If I'm wrong, the legue pockets $100. You don't have to charge money - you could give every team, say, three 'inspections' they can use on opponents per event and only kick in the collateral system after those are exhausted.

We don't need to check every gun. And I can't believe you're seriously suggesting that that would be necessary. All we need is a way, when we DO check a gun, to be SURE whether it is legal or not. That's the problem - we can have a gun, it can be an illegal gun, and we just don't know.

If you do know, then you just check guns that are suspicious, plus do some random spot checking.


I'm not trying to suggest that this change is going to prevent anyone from ever having an illegal gun ever. But, it will change the situation from "Anybody can use a cheater board and you're not going to get caught" to "There's a very strong possibility someone is going to notice you shooting suspiciously fast, inspect your gun, find out it'snot legal, and boot you from the league", which is the difference between everyone believing all their opponents are cheating and believing there might be one or two people cheating and it's only a matter of time before they get caught.

 

[Robbo]

Baca - Duff, you two are gonna disappear up each other's philosophical ass if you don't watch out, I know I sometimes push the limit on occasion but you guys have to remember this is Paintball here and not some John Dewey / C.S. Pierce masterclass.

I know we like to stimulate some intelligent debate on this site but bejeeeeezus, I had to actually concentrate for once to get a handle on what the heck you two guys were getting at.
I don't wanna concentrate when I come on here, i just wanna enjoy a pleasant walk through the pages of this forum, stopping occasionally to smell the ignorance and admire the occasional insights.

After reading your two posts, and Duff's final thrust to Baca's heart with the morality / pragmatism observation ......... in the words of John Cleese in Monty Python ...... My Brain Hurts !!!!

 

[Rabies]

What's your point? You don't understand the problem.
[...]
The problem is that because we allow hidden, secret software, we can't detect illegal software. We *CAN* detect extra chips, different circuits, etc. So yeah, I can give you a certified chip, and you can add extra electronics around it, but as soon as we open up your gun the gig is up and you get DQ'd and banned.

The problem, or at least part of the problem, is that it would require a lot of time and resources to physically inspect every gun in this level of detail to be sure before every game that it had not been modified in any way. Back in the days when all that was needed was a quick check that the reg cap was locked and a beavertail was in place, checking that a gun was legal was pretty straightforward. But how long does it take when the grip has to be opened, and the wiring checked from end to end for the presence of any nefarious devices? And are the guns then locked up in a secured room for the duration of the tournament, because if not you've got to do that every game. If you're only doing spot checks, or only looking at "suspicious" guns, then a cheat's chances in that world may be almost as good as their chances are right now.

Certified boards would provide assurance that a gun was legal only in conjunction with a full physical inspection. If you can outline a system to make that workable in the real world, then you have a solution. Otherwise, you have only half a solution.

EDIT: I've just read your couple of followups to Manike's post and you have addressed some of my points already. I would still maintain that it's too big a step to convince all the concerned parties to take if it's only going to go a small way towards stamping out gun cheats.

 

[rpcruzr]

Doping guns

I think that something like this could work: you could test the guns of every finalist team, much like in doping tests.

They could swap guns before the finals, but at least the finals would be fair...

Chicago, you talk about software and reading software and all that, but you're missing the point. The trick is not to check the software to see if it conforms.

The trick is to check that AND check whether that's the software that's REALLY firing the gun. A lot of people said that you could circumvent the board's software with another chip or whatever, and they are right. As soon as it stops being HARDware and starts being SOFTware, that's when it's the easiest to cheat.

What if we could have a physical way of testing the ROF visually? Like a strip that attaches to the end of the barrel and changes colour if more than X balls went by per second? "Check the strip, turned red! You're out!"

... "simple", yet futuristic...

 

[Chicago]

Again, I don't understand why you would physically inspect every gun. You only need to inspect guns that are suspicious, plus spot-check guns at random. If half the people are using gun cheats, half the guns you randomly inspect will be cheater guns, and you'll issue a lot of penalties. Next tournament, I guarantee you won't have half the guns you inspect be illegal.

NASCAR regulates how large a fuel tank can be. There are ways to get an oversized fuel tank past inspection. But then if a car suddenly goes 120 miles between pit stops instead of 100 miles, that car is going to get a much more detailed inspection of the fuel tank, and that team is going to get some pretty severe sanctions when NASCAR figures out they had a false bottom in the tank during the original inspection.

The same principle applies here: If someone is shooting slow, we're not worried about their gun. If a ref sees somebody shooting faster than it looks like they're pulling the trigger, you pull the gun and give it a detailed inspection. It will be pretty obvious, once you open the gun up, if there is an extra chip between the trigger and the certified chip or between the certified chip and the solenoid. All you have to do is check circuit continuity from the trigger switch to the chip input pin and from the chip output pins to the solenoid. Pretty easy to do.


I'm not saying it won't be POSSIBLE to play some games with an illegal gun. But it will in most cases not be in someone's self interest to do so, when there is a reasonable chance they will be caught, and a severe penalty if they are caught. That's all we need to do - change 'virtually no chance of being caught' to 'reasonable chance of being caught'.


The other thing is this: Catching the cheaters is only HALF of what you are trying to accomplish. The other thing you are going to accomplish is PROVE PEOPLE ARE NOT CHEATERS.

For example, Robbo insists his team uses legal guns. I don't believe him (fictionally, I believe him in reality.) So after I play Robbo's team, I say "Nexus is a bunch of cheaters using illegal guns, I want them inspected, here's my $100." They get the detailed inspection, and they pass, and then people start to believe that Nexus does, indeed, have legal guns, because it's no longer just a battle of accusations, you can now prove whether someone's guns are legal or not.

And whiney bitches can't say "They only beat us because their guns were illegal!", because if that were really the case, you would have called for an inspection.

 

[manike]

Contrary to popular belief, turning trigger events into solenoid movements is not hard.

Very true. I can find any electronics engineer who can do that. BUT to make it run a gun like the way (or even close) to the way guns are run right now, Is.

Every gun requires a different set up. One set of code that may make one gun legal, could be 'illegal' in another.

Sure, check the chip. How do you relate to how it's set up in that gun?

Do you actually have any experience in code writing or electronics in paintball guns?

I can take a legally set board for one gun, put it into another and get extra shots. At the same settings. I know the gun's doing it (I even know ways to make the gun do it). All I did was swap the board. How does that make your 'safe' chip, fit what you want it to? Sure the gun is using your approved 'legal' semi auto chip... and yet you get more shots when it is set up one way with one gun, than with another?...

You have to look at the end result, which is coming out the end of the gun.

You seem to have glossed over who would be writing the code. There aren't that many people that can truely write gun code that will run any gun. You'd need to have a viable answer to this question before you could even consider this idea a real possibility.

As for someone running a high speed camera... there are many viable people with those skills and technology.

THEN you have to persuade all the gun manufacturers that it will run their guns as well as their competitors guns... So no-one has an unfair advantage. Whilst many of these people are also the ones sponsoring your event to be run...

Or you may actually be crazy enough to be suggesting that all these gun manufacturers actually show you their source code so you can have someone 'inspect it'? That's valuable IP. And again these are the people sponsoring your event so it can be run... and again, who would this inspector be? Please don't just answer with 'someone'. You need a real person, with real (read expensive) skills to do this.

OK, so after all that.

You're not proposing every gun get checked? So then why wouldn't people run the risk of getting away with a gun that just adds a little? It would be like the risk to playing on etc. At what point is it worth it?

I've seen pro players have IDENTICAL guns. Even down to intentional scratches. So when needed they could hide the one gun in the pits and show the other one. I even saw one guy get chased off the field by a ref, slide his gun by his gear, then pull out a different one for the refs.

Maybe you'd play some prelim games with cheater guns, then use more legal ones for the finals.

Sorry, I just think there are so many issues involved with this concept, not least $$$ investment, that it would be hard/impossible to implement and have it make a difference.

How come no-one has shot down my idea for slow motion video? It can't have been that good can it?

EDIT. Damn, others have been replying while I slow poked my response.

Chicago, when I go to these events, currently almost EVERY gun at the top leve is suspicious. I'd want to check them all. Maybe I'm just cynical... or know too much about them.

 

[Chicago]

Chicago, you talk about software and reading software and all that, but you're missing the point. The trick is not to check the software to see if it conforms.

The trick is to check that AND check whether that's the software that's REALLY firing the gun.

I'm not missing that, that's an obvious requirement. But you can't check that software is conforming if you don't require conforming software in the first place.

 

[Chicago]

I can take a legally set board for one gun, put it into another and get extra shots. At the same settings. I know the gun's doing it (I even know ways to make the gun do it). All I did was swap the board. How does that make your 'safe' chip, fit what you want it to? Sure the gun is using your approved 'legal' semi auto chip... and yet you get more shots when it is set up one way with one gun, than with another?...

So you can take a board that works in one gun and put it in another gun and it's illegal - so what? I can take the velocity knob on one gun and not even move it and turn up the velocity and then the gun is illegal. You're missing the problem. The problem is NOT that players can set up their guns illegally. The problem is that the players can SECRETLY CHANGE THE SETTINGS.

I am not claiming that the certified software will prevent people from being able to set guns up so they fire illegally. In fact, I am positive that people with certified software will be able to configure the software so that the gun will operate illegally. That's not the point. The point is that *IF* the player chooses to set up the gun so that it operates illegally, and *IF* the player goes on the field with that gun, they will not be able to then secretly change the settings so the gun is legal in the event it is pulled for inspection.


Ask yourself this question:

"Why doesn't the NPPL robot work?"

The answer is:

"Because the settings on the gun are changed before the gun gets to the robot."

So, do we need to prevent players from having illegal settings? No - we already have ways to detect illegal guns. What we need to do is PREVENT PLAYERS FROM SECRETLY CHANGING THE SETTINGS.


So, is it possible for a player to change boards so that a gun that was illegal is now legal? Sure. But I'd sure hope the referee would notice that the player was unscrewing the grip frame from the gun he just pulled.

 

[shamu]

Missy, I think you are blowing against the wind. You and I both know from living in the USA, that the morals, ethics, and sportsmanship instilled into many Europeans just isn't in existance in the USA when it comes to sports (or a lot of stuff actually). And they don't care or understand nor do they want to. Second place here is always just the 'first loser'. I don't think many (any?) Americans understand the value we place on sportsmanship. They just don't. The only value they see in anything competitive is winning. At any costs.

I like you Simon, but with all due respect - **** you. While America has it's share of ***holes, don't tar the entire country with the same brush. Maybe it's because we have a larger population, and consequently more asses to go around. To say that there are few if any americans who understand sportsmanship is the worst kind of generalization. is it fair to say Brits are a bunch of thugs after watching their world cup team stomping on other players?

Maybe you don't see the people who understand sportsmanship at national PB events because competing in this sport, in it's current format, is simpily not fun. Bonus balling, screaming obscenities, physical intimidation and outright violence? Where's the fun in that? I think PB attracts more people with anger management/personality issues than most other sports. Most of the players who appreciate sportsmanship and fair play are probably back in the woods, playing local events or reffing, although you'll still see a few in the lower PSP/NPPL divisions.

/RANT


PS - although if you're still living in South Jersey, that could explain a lot