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Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Robbo said:
Baca - Duff, you two are gonna disappear up each other's philosophical ass if you don't watch out, I know I sometimes push the limit on occasion but you guys have to remember this is Paintball here and not some John Dewey / C.S. Pierce masterclass.

I know we like to stimulate some intelligent debate on this site but bejeeeeezus, I had to actually concentrate for once to get a handle on what the heck you two guys were getting at.
I don't wanna concentrate when I come on here, i just wanna enjoy a pleasant walk through the pages of this forum, stopping occasionally to smell the ignorance and admire the occasional insights.

After reading your two posts, and Duff's final thrust to Baca's heart with the morality / pragmatism observation ......... in the words of John Cleese in Monty Python ...... My Brain Hurts !!!!

:(
I wasn't planning any additional comebacks so no worries on that score and while it may be true the conversation has a limited audience I'd hope that for at least a few it would offer a twist on the typical cheaters suck/ what me cheat? back and forth. But maybe not.:)

If pragmatic (or relative) considerations are in fact the foundation of morality then it really is no different from cultural training or even whim in which case it isn't worth making any particular fuss over. ;)
 

Dannefaerd

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Jul 8, 2001
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What about CFOA mode? Isn't that capped semi? (Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?) ... granted it doesn't remove the "cheat modes" that Chicago is advocating in his posts (and with good reason) ... but it would assist in the leveling of playing fields in the short/med term while a longer terms solution is sorted out.
 

Chicago

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Dannefaerd said:
What about CFOA mode? Isn't that capped semi? (Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?) ... granted it doesn't remove the "cheat modes" that Chicago is advocating in his posts (and with good reason) ... but it would assist in the leveling of playing fields in the short/med term while a longer terms solution is sorted out.
15 bps capped semi is just another way of saying 15 bps ramping.

- Chris
 
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ollytheosteo

Guest
Chicago said:
Anybody who is not an experienced tournament player.
OK- got that wrong as seen in quote below, I thought you were saying below 15bps no fun:mad:
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
ollytheosteo said:
Well. that's me told:eek:

So let me get this right- experienced tourney players can't have fun playing with a 15bps cap? So all those PSP guys and girls, CFOA, NXL, all noobs? Or do they not have any fun playing?

All over the tinkerer/pump/old guys side of the sport people are getting pissed off and/or leaving because they're fed up getting pwned by some cocky teen shooting the latest marker (paper rounds obv gone up a bit:eek: ) with the latest 'includes modes but of course we'd never expect you to use them TM' software, shooting 25bps and boasting they max out their halo. Hard to see where that attitude comes from, isn't it?
Olly, I imagine what Chicago means is that when the marker tech trickles down to local field level and newbie tourney level that it's a problem with regards player retention because they have neither the skills or sometimes the inclination to resist blowing the hell outta each other. Whereas the experienced players do that as a matter of course.;)
 
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ollytheosteo

Guest
Chicago said:
15 bps capped semi is just another way of saying 15 bps ramping.

Apart from the fact if the rules state that a marker must be in semi, using ramping etc is cheating. And you can set a gun up to shoot near as you can to 'true' semi, with no assistance, and no cheats, if you want to.

If you don't, then to hell with you, but at least you wont stick your little 25bps willy in my ear.
That's 'sexual harrassment', and that makes me a saaaaad panda.
 
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ollytheosteo

Guest
Baca Loco said:
Olly, I imagine what Chicago means is that when the marker tech trickles down to local field level and newbie tourney level that it's a problem with regards player retention because they have neither the skills or sometimes the inclination to resist blowing the hell outta each other.Whereas the experienced players do that as a matter of course.;)
Gald to hear they're such responsible chaps;)

I was labouring under the misapprehension that they started the whole thing and it was that bonus balling/overshooting/I h8 my hopper 'cos it won't do 25 attitude that had filtered down and made getting started so intimidating:rolleyes: I don't think the tech does as much damage as the 'suck it up, bitch' attitude that seems to be the stock response to any kind of cheating or arsehole behaviour, and you have to wonder where that comes from.

I can't see the logic of that argument even if you take it that way- are you (Chicago) seriously suggesting that if even if we somehow manage to introduce true semi to top end tourney play this will stop people using cheats at the local field? I know it isn't ideal, but better the new players get shot at 15bps with a cap than at max speeds with cheat modes as they are on local fields anywhere the owner puts profit>safety. New players coming up against the agg ballerz with 58 breakout modes that shoot uncapped ramping will not be back in a hurry, so lets see a limit that can be enforced rather than the seemingly unattainable goal of 'semi'; I can't see Joe Little-Fieldowner investing in chips all round but he might just get a few BPS counters now they cost $60 and can maybe help with insurance. Surely the only way to get new players on fields with no markers over 7-10 is mech only or setting the cap lower- then you lose all the guys who think shooting faster makes your dick bigger. The very novice players with mech guns should, perhaps, be kept out of the way of the tourney wannabees rather than all thrown in together, but that's just common sense. A novice player can now go and buy a marker and for a few more bucks can pick up a board with cheat modes designed to be undetectable and damn dangerous, so the days of the blowback noob are numbered unless they split, take to the woods or the electros are capped and monitored.

I'm not even sure how we got from trying to control gun cheats in the NPPL and players thinking 15bps is too slow to 15bps being too fast for new players but I'm sure it all links up somehow:)
 

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
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Chicago said:
Naming names impedes my conspiracy to take over the world.
Ok. So you won't say who you have consulted with, and you have no experience yourself in this field. :)

On the other hand, we have someone with experience in this field, and who speaks quite regularly to two of the top people in this field, and on a friendly basis with the other top two, and then knows well, but would never consider myself friends with the 5th person at the top of this field. I can name every name, probably call most of them from my cell phone.

I also work for one of the largest manufacturers of paintball guns and equipment, and one of the big sponsors of these events.

Agreed?

Just so we are straight on where we are coming from.

At this point, can you please stop saying that the IP involved and skill level involved with making electronic control boards is negligable. It's not. No manufacturer will agree with you. No one who works in the field will agree with you. No one you can find to do the work will agree with you. You won't get it done for cheap.

There is significant work and IP and $$$ involved to make a control board that works and allows you to tune in a gun to run at it's best even for pure 'semi auto' as allowed under the rules, and that will work for every gun, and for you to have enough boards and chips for all the different guns that might turn up at an event. There just is.

Until you have real proof that there isn't, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Also can you also please stop implying that it will be a simple thing to get these manufacturers to give up their source code. We won't, and I don't believe anyone else would. Why? because even for semi auto, that IP is VERY valuable to us. It is. You can't argue that we feel it is valuable. You are not us. You haven't put the years of work into it that we have.

Also if for instance the real reason as you suggest is that there is built in cheating. Why would a manufacturer give you the code that lets you see that? Obviously if they give you any different code and the gun's don't work well, something is up right? Surely most will just plead the fifth and never give you the code. Or tell you to make your own, and then complain you aren't doing it right when your code is crap and doesn't run their guns well...

OK, so now, speaking as someone who works on this stuff, who makes these guns, and who works for one of the companies who sponsors these events.

You're not going to get what you want.

Now tell me how you can force me to do it. Or lets work towards another idea. :)

Please don't tell me it's cheaper to risk losing the sponsorship and teams and trying to enforce such a system, than it is to look at other technology that can catch the cheats, that won't need gun inspection, that won't need specific chips, that can be used to name and shame people, and that may actually knock a few of the biggest cheats onto their butts as they actually get caught cheating, rather than trying to persuade those huge cheats to give you their valuable IP...

Again, what's so crazy about simply videoing people? You could even play it back on a huge jumbotron screen... not as if that's ever been used to shut up cheats before. ;)

With a decent video system you could catch everyone adding shots. You could catch guns over a certain rof. And then with a decent radar system you can catch the velocity cheats.

So now instead of all this chip crap and infrastructure and inspections, and hiding extra chips, and swapping guns depending on the game etc, you just have a guy with a radar gun, and another with a video camera. The same system you use to catch the cheats also lets you name and shame them. :)
 

Chicago

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Wait, where did I say I was going to force you to give up the code?

I said I was going to force you to use certified software, and if you didn't want to use the software provided, you could provide your own IF you gave up the source for it.

As for how hard it is, if Jim Drew can make cheat boards for nearly every marker, then any competent engineer can make non-cheat boards for every marker. The prevolence of aftermarket boards from custom shops I think pretty well negates your argument that there is some ultra-secret sauce required.


On the video thing, if it works, I'm all for it. I think the big obstacle there is getting the league over the psychology that they have to PROVE The gun is illegal by causing it to fire in an illegal manner so that when presented with the video, they will actually issue appropriate penalties and not let themselves get talked out of it.
 

Fisz

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Jun 10, 2006
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Chicago said:
Wait, where did I say I was going to force you to give up the code?

I said I was going to force you to use certified software, and if you didn't want to use the software provided, you could provide your own IF you gave up the source for it.

As for how hard it is, if Jim Drew can make cheat boards for nearly every marker, then any competent engineer can make non-cheat boards for every marker. The prevolence of aftermarket boards from custom shops I think pretty well negates your argument that there is some ultra-secret sauce required.


On the video thing, if it works, I'm all for it. I think the big obstacle there is getting the league over the psychology that they have to PROVE The gun is illegal by causing it to fire in an illegal manner so that when presented with the video, they will actually issue appropriate penalties and not let themselves get talked out of it.
I think that what Manike is trying to say is, that no matter how hard you try to force any of the manufacturers to comply with the standards you'd like to put in place... you're still pissing against the wind - There's no way you would be able to introduce such rules and force the companies that manufacture the guns to comply with them. Maybe you have forgotten, but it's actually the manufacturers that run some of those tournaments and these same manufacturers have a lot to say in all the other important leagues. Such is the nature of tournament paintball.

I have to agree with Manike on the other point he made. There are much simpler ways to catch cheaters and the technology to do it is easily available. It's only the question of who will take it up onto themselves to actually step forward and start putting their names on the wall of shame.