Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[duffistuta]

And unless or until someone is prepared to qualify sportsmanship and personal responsibility in this context it sounds suspiciously like it's bad 'cus I don't like it and think it ought to be otherwise.

.

Sounds like a challenge...


I know it's tremendously unfashionable in our de-centred, post modern times to talk about such quaint, outmoded notions as purpose and meaning, but in my mind sport has both. It is an arena that should, certainly within the field of play, be untainted by the ambiguities and uncertainties of 'real' life, an arena where the players embody notions of sportsmanship and fair play alongside extreme competitiveness, dedication and skill. It should provide the audience with catharsis and send them home safe in the knowledge that, at least in one aspect of life, the team/individual that deserves to win by and large does - it's codified war without the killing, where the modern equivalents of chivalry and honour still count for something.

The mere fact that you and I can talk about sportsmanship and personal responsibility in any meaningful way shows a degree of shared understanding of those terms...I don't expect anyone to qualify terms like love or honour, for argument's sake, but we all use them in a similar enough way in context to show at least a shared frame of reference.

And the degree of defensiveness, denial and knee jerk 'he does it so I do it too' that inevitably comes out when an offender is challenged shows that they too know they are doing something wrong - even if the rules in the strictest sense are not adequate to show them exactly what is right. (There are obvious examples to this - Markus take a bow - but they are rare enough to be recognised as anomalies).

If you have to define sportsmanship and place it within the rules, it ceases to be sportsmanship.

 

[manike]

Missy, I think you are blowing against the wind. You and I both know from living in the USA, that the morals, ethics, and sportsmanship instilled into many Europeans just isn't in existance in the USA when it comes to sports (or a lot of stuff actually). And they don't care or understand nor do they want to. Second place here is always just the 'first loser'. I don't think many (any?) Americans understand the value we place on sportsmanship. They just don't. The only value they see in anything competitive is winning. At any costs.

We can talk about morality and honour all day long, but the fact remains that rules and the enforcement of them should be designed so that rule breakers find it very hard to win. Currently, rule breakers find it easier to win and those who play by the rules find it harder. Therefore the system is obviously flawed.

Good point. But the problem is catching the *******s in the first place.

I think when it comes to the big games (finals?) the use of referees with video camera's on towers in each corner of the field and call's after the game should be allowed. Penalise the offenders. Even if you only catch them after the event, penalise them for the next event. As long as you have some evidence. Offenders need to be penalised.

 

[manike]

You know, I have one regret.

Back when electronic guns first started being used and abused, a friend and I caught a very well known player and industry leader cheating with his gun via a video camera. I believe the same person Robbo was talking about earlier.

It was very obvious too. You could see the bolt pin, and you could see his fingers moving on the trigger. We slowed the footage down and watched each pull in relation to each time the gun fired. It was very simple to see the gun shoot once on the pull, and once on the release of the trigger.

I regret now that the footage was never made public. Not sure if it would have made a difference but maybe.

You know what... with the developments of modern camera equipment (high speed cameras) it wouldn't be hard to do this at events nowadays. With the correct camera frame rates you don't even need the most obvious movement of the bolt pin. (Although I still appreciate that would be a great giveaway on many guns). You can now capture the balls coming out in relation to the trigger pulls.

Lets film a few buggers.

Let's penalise those who's gun's shoot more than their fingers pull.

Let's post the videos on a 'Name and Shame' website...

We did it over 5 years ago, and actually made a label come up each time a pull was made and each time a shot fired. It was soo easy then for anyone to be able to see the cheating.

It won't catch anyone boosting their velocity (I don't think that is quite such an issue in the NPPL) and the radar guns are actually doing a decent job against that. It will catch all those with break out modes, and guns with smart ramping adding shots... which is a significant number of the top NPPL teams. Sorry to all those who don't believe it. But it is. Maybe not every player on every team, but a lot of them.

 

[PSPLane]

MissyQ -

I haven't the time to count, but I think you have refered to insurance coverage 3 or 4 times in this thread, and you have in the past as well when discussing the rate of fire issue.

What's your point?

 

[Chicago]

You can measure velocity with a camera - you know when the paintball left the barrel, and you know how far the paintball has gone after X number of evenly timed frames.

You're not going to get accurate down to a couple FPS without a lot of work (since you're measuring #d movement with a 2d device) but you could definitely catch someone shooting 350 instead of 300.


That gets me back to needing certified chips though - not just because of BPS, but because it is harder to consistently measure FPS, and you need certified software to prevent dwell ramping and other velocity increasing software tricks.

 

[MissyQ]

Thats your only regret?
What about that goatee beard?

 

[Baca Loco]

Sounds like a challenge...


1--I know it's tremendously unfashionable in our de-centred, post modern times to talk about such quaint, outmoded notions as purpose and meaning, but in my mind sport has both. It is an arena that should, certainly within the field of play, be untainted by the ambiguities and uncertainties of 'real' life, an arena where the players embody notions of sportsmanship and fair play alongside extreme competitiveness, dedication and skill. It should provide the audience with catharsis and send them home safe in the knowledge that, at least in one aspect of life, the team/individual that deserves to win by and large does - it's codified war without the killing, where the modern equivalents of chivalry and honour still count for something.

2--The mere fact that you and I can talk about sportsmanship and personal responsibility in any meaningful way shows a degree of shared understanding of those terms...I don't expect anyone to qualify terms like love or honour, for argument's sake, but we all use them in a similar enough way in context to show at least a shared frame of reference.

3--And the degree of defensiveness, denial and knee jerk 'he does it so I do it too' that inevitably comes out when an offender is challenged shows that they too know they are doing something wrong - even if the rules in the strictest sense are not adequate to show them exactly what is right. (There are obvious examples to this - Markus take a bow - but they are rare enough to be recognised as anomalies).

4--If you have to define sportsmanship and place it within the rules, it ceases to be sportsmanship.

1--quite a poetic way to say fantasy, my friend. It seems you'd like the world and people to change the moment they step within the boundaries of the field and for what? The audience? So everyone can share the fantasy for a short period of time? I confess it sounds swell but am having difficulty wrapping my head around the should part. I'm afraid perpetuating the fantasy doesn't do it for me and there still isn't any expressed moral imperative involved as yet so while I too like all the noble stuff and I quite understand your point I remain unconvinced.

2--Perhaps I'm being overly rigorous in my requirements but I think it's important. You and I may be able to use those terms and share a general meaning but that isn't universally or generationally true and, at least for me, when y'all start arguing the morality of playing a game I think there is a value in actually coming to terms with what you mean because even though you've framed it nicely your argument still seems to amount to this is how it ought to be because that's how I'd like it to be (how I was brought up to think about it, etc.) Me too but it's unpersuasive.

3--again, I don't disagree, but the only foundation that's been laid is cultural, not moral, and all those condemning the cheater, cheating, etc. are putting the issues into a moral framework whilst only assuming the morality of your position. It may seem self-evident but no one has made the case as yet. Another part of this whole conversation that I find fascinating is the desire to separate the game from "real" life as if one wasn't a sub-set of the other and demand more purity from the fraction than from the whole.

4--sounds suspiciously like your suggesting sportsmanship--whatever its actual meaning--is a virtue separate from the environment in which it functions in which case your desire is for something from the individual distinct from the game he/she plays. SEE number 1.

 

[MissyQ]

Hello Lane,
I hope I made my point already, if you are looking for another, sub-terrainian, ****-talking point, then you are going to be disappointed.

 

[duffistuta]

1--quite a poetic way to say fantasy, my friend. It seems you'd like the world and people to change the moment they step within the boundaries of the field and for what? The audience? So everyone can share the fantasy for a short period of time? I confess it sounds swell but am having difficulty wrapping my head around the should part. I'm afraid perpetuating the fantasy doesn't do it for me and there still isn't any expressed moral imperative involved as yet so while I too like all the noble stuff and I quite understand your point I remain unconvinced.

2--Perhaps I'm being overly rigorous in my requirements but I think it's important. You and I may be able to use those terms and share a general meaning but that isn't universally or generationally true and, at least for me, when y'all start arguing the morality of playing a game I think there is a value in actually coming to terms with what you mean because even though you've framed it nicely your argument still seems to amount to this is how it ought to be because that's how I'd like it to be (how I was brought up to think about it, etc.) Me too but it's unpersuasive.

3--again, I don't disagree, but the only foundation that's been laid is cultural, not moral, and all those condemning the cheater, cheating, etc. are putting the issues into a moral framework whilst only assuming the morality of your position. It may seem self-evident but no one has made the case as yet. Another part of this whole conversation that I find fascinating is the desire to separate the game from "real" life as if one wasn't a sub-set of the other and demand more purity from the fraction than from the whole.

4--sounds suspiciously like your suggesting sportsmanship--whatever its actual meaning--is a virtue separate from the environment in which it functions in which case your desire is for something from the individual distinct from the game he/she plays. SEE number 1.

1. Of course 1. is a 'should' and I can give you a ****load of reasons why it should happen, but I think we're already boring people so I'll keep it to this: Yes, like cinema, sport is a fantasy. of a different kind for sure, but it fulfills a similar role. When sport ceases to fulfill this function then (like Paintball has and, judging by the recent World cup, football is going to) people begin to drift away and the sport will suffer from reduced interest and participation. And none of us want that.

2. See 1.

3. Game separation from real life - see 1 again.

4. Not at all, it suggests that virtue cannot be legislated for - there are sporting conventions that are respected (still, just) in football that would not be in a busines environment because sport is still not (quite) commerce.

 

[PSPLane]

MissyQ --

I didn't want to put words in your mouth. That's why I asked.

But, in an effort to avoid having others draw conclusions based on what they could believe you are implying, I want to make it clear that PSP tournaments are fully insured events.

Our underwriter is well aware of our rules and how we enforce these rules. And while it costs us a bit more for insurance, we are absolutely covered. Our insurance policy, which is through Lloyds of London, spells out our gun rules verbatim.

I know this is far off topic But I need to make sure no one draws the wrong conclusions from some of the things written in this thread.