EUtopia?

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo
By radicalising anything, you can make it look absurd, it's a less than subtle device used by many an idealist.


B]

Not radicalising, just taking the BNP's stated policy and applying it to other countries in a thought experiment. There's a difference.

>>>get the entry policy right so that we allow people who are going to contribute to this country to then come in.<<<

You'll get no argument from me on that point.

 

[mikeyR]

Originally posted by Robbo
By radicalising anything, you can make it look absurd, it's a less than subtle device used by many an idealist.
Saying that, the BNP is of course racist, to suggest they are anything else is as absurd as suggesting the UKIP is another face of the BNP.

As far as I am concerned, we don't need no more three fingered piano players or one legged ballet dancers from Rumania; stop them all coming in and get the entry policy right so that we allow people who are going to contribute to this country to then come in.
I am sick and tired of seeing Crimewatch festooned with Eastern European gangs of pickpockets, credit card fraudsters and so on.
We ain't making these people do that sh!t, they are choosing do it for themselves.
I mean, am I going round their house, dragging them out of bed, telling them to go rob some poor bastid of his money?
No I ain't, they are choosing to do it instead of working and if the majority of these people are Eastern European, then it is THEY who are making it a race issue, not me.

Have to agree with this, and I don't think its a racist view, just one of fact. Hit the nail on the head.

 

[Ben Frain]

Duffistuta, they (BNP) aren't my buddies. For the record I aren't even a member (which surely I would be if I was the white hooded cross burner you would love to paint me as).

That said, I agree with quite a few of the points the BNP is bringing to the forefront of the UK political scene at the moment and just because everyone else thinks of them as ignorant racists doesn't mean the BNP aren't correct or applying common sense to certain issues. What's more, just because you want to wave the racist flag at me just for suggesting that different cultures/belief systems can't live together doesn't make me **** my pants and think I should just put my tail between my legs and agree with everyone else. You have your opinion and I can respect that but don't expect me to subscribe to it just because you call me names...

Do I want all non-whites shipped out? Of course not, and what's more I don't think anyone apart from a complete and utter nutter would or even think that. So please, don't even try and put those words into my mouth. You are just twisting things with that course. John C (I think) intimated the point that many people are just swinging to the right at the minute because all the PC nonsense is out of hand, we have lost common sense (e.g. immigration) at the minute and people want to scare those in power back into common sense. I agree.

I am just as interested in different religions, cultures and beliefs as the next chap but I also happen to believe that being interested and meeting those people is one thing but living in each others pockets is another.

I don't give a monkeys about somebody's colour or ethnic background but I do care about their beliefs. I don't think Islamic fundamentalists and Christians are ever going to make for good bed fellows. Show me one example of two different belief systems getting along in the same piece of land and I will be VERY suprised (although it didn't take you long to prove me wrong last time I layed down a challenge in this thread so maybe I just made a rod for my own back!). It would be nice but unfortunately people (for the most part) just aren't that tolerant.

Do I think people in the UK who have a different belief system than the indiginous population here trying to take us in different directions is a good and positive thing? No, I don't. Because at the end of the day it will never pass off peacefully and you get the trouble there is in Burnley/Oldham etc echoed throughout the UK.

It's an issue of integration ultimately. In my mind anyone can come here, integrate and contribute and 99% of people don't have a problem. HOWEVER, there is a growing number of people coming over who come over and DON'T contribute, they don't even speak English. I don't think that is right, I don't want those people here and if that's racist then show me where to sign. I don't think that it is too much to ask that when in Rome, people should do as the Romans do.

That's it from me on the subject of BNP/racism so slander away. When you're all done I would quite like to have the original discussion on the EU though and see what people think.

Anyone have a good reason we should be ruled from Brussels? I'm an open minded chap so convince me!

 

[duffistuta]

>>>Do I want all non-whites shipped out? Of course not, and what's more I don't think anyone apart from a complete and utter nutter would or even think that. So please, don't even try and put those words into my mouth. You are just twisting things with that course. <<<

I am not twisting anything, I am not putting words in your mouth. Here are your words:

1.I actually agree with virtually everything the BNP stands for at the minute

Your words.

2. Show me one, just one piece of hatred or racism...

I believe I have showed you many, which you then claimed 'weren't racist'.

IF you support the BNP, as you said you did, then by implcation you DO want all non-whites shipped out because that's the cornerstone of everything the BNP stands for. Fact. I have given you the evidence, you cannot argue with it because it is there in black and white.

Now if you are now saying that you are not a racist, I can only ask you why the **** you support a party that is founded upon racism and making Britain all-white?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth or paint you as anything, I am taking you on face value on what you have said and commenting upon it.

EDIT ADD:

>>>What's more, just because you want to wave the racist flag at me just for suggesting that different cultures/belief systems can't live together doesn't make me **** my pants and think I should just put my tail between my legs and agree with everyone else. You have your opinion and I can respect that but don't expect me to subscribe to it just because you call me names...<<<

I don't expect you to do anything, I'm not calling you names - believe what you want to believe, but if you're making false or self-contradictory statements then I'm not going to just ignore them...claiming not to be racist but to agree with what the BNP stands for is like claiming to be a vegetarian while tucking into a beefburger.

 

[stongle]

Hmm did'nt Christian's and Muslims live quite happily together in Iraq. Look what happened when we removed Saddam, Sectarian Violence like a mofo.

Go figure.

 

[mikeyR]

Originally posted by stongle
Hmm did'nt Christian's and Muslims live quite happily together in Iraq. Look what happened when we removed Saddam, Sectarian Violence like a mofo.

Go figure.

I don't think they had a choice under Saddam - any dissent was cracked down on - hard!

While all the arguements about race and religon are interesting this whole thread is actually about intergration into the EU - any danger of it getting back on topic?

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by stongle
Hmm did'nt Christian's and Muslims live quite happily together in Iraq. Look what happened when we removed Saddam, Sectarian Violence like a mofo.

Go figure.

I think you'll find the reason they 'got along' Glen was that there was an even greater evil, that of Saddam's retribution awaiting anybody who might want to put their head above the masses in the form of interracial or interreligious conflict.

The point is, they didn't live 'happily' together at all, they existed under a suppressive regime that would have you killed if you got out of line in any way.

In fact, once that greater threat had been taken away, interreligoius conflict did undobtedly surface which does suggest, that in a free(r) society, interreligoius and interracial conflict is inevitable.

Edit : Dammit Mikey, you just beat me to it

 

[duffistuta]

Depends on the society - moderate religious groups can and do get on fine, it's when extremism and fundamentalists get involved that problems start. Catholics and protestants tend to get on fine, but then look at Northern Ireland; Christians and Muslims co-exist happily in Jordan, but then look at the problems in some of the Middle East hardline States.

Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and many more religions have co-existed reasonably happily in Britain for the last 50 years, whereas Christians of differing denominations have been merrily murdering each other in Ireland and Muslims of different factions are currently offing each other in Iraq...go figure.

I'm not a huge fan of Christianity or the Koran, but both faiths preach open-ness and tolerance...unfortunately, hardline morons tend to ignore that and go off on their own little Jihads, which have as much to do with their original faiths as, er, this post has to do with the EU...

 

[Robbo]

Some of this rehtoric kills me, when we talk about hard liners, extremeists and so on, what are we really talking about?

When we mention the fact that not all people are like this, in fact the majority of people, get along quite nicely disregarding ethnicity or race, for the most part it's all true but........those extremists, those nasty hard liners, that sub-human group of terrorists and fanatics are us, they come from us, they are borne not from a genetic subspecies but emerge from the collective.
Extreme?
Yes
Inhuman in behaviour?
Yes again but nevertheless they are still us.
It is impossible to have extremists without having moderates as their genesis.

If you need any clarification or example of this, just go look at what happened in Yugoslavia a few years back to realise the evil that lurks inside a librarian, a car mechanic, a lawyer and so on.

For the most, people like to get along but it denies human nature to suggest we can all live in some blueprint Utopia.
Conflict will inevitably erupt along whatever fracture lines are apparent or convenient, to deny this is ignorant, foolhardy and ultimately counter-productive and for this the PC'ites of this world should all be rounded up and shot, a bit excessive I agree but hey, who said I wasn't human

 

[stongle]

If you allow me to finish my steak sandwich I will elaborate on my earlier comment, which is kinda relevant to the whole EU situation. Patience my young padowans