End of the road for pros?

[Chicago]

I do tend to write long posts. I think I should just write my post, then send it to Magued for the 5-line succinct version.

As for Dynasty, the fact that they are not representative is exactly my point. They were at 'the top' for a while, then not, and are now doing well in 7-man again. But there are other teams that have done just as or nearly as well at various points - the Russians, XSV, Rage... or if you want to go back far enough, Aftershock, etc. Those teams had just as much opportunity to brand themselves but failed to.

Now, I'm not going to argue that it's fair to compare everyone head-to-head vs. Dynasty and expect everyone else to do as well as Dynasty has. But I *DO* think it's fair to expect everyone to do the same kinds of things Dynasty has. Some are doing some of it, but I don't think any other team has put as much effort into their branding as Dynasty has.

 

[Missy-Q]

My view is that Pete has personal relationships with industry figures that span 2 decades and a million experiences. Industry leaders include his own former team-mates, and there is no reason to assume that what Pete is told by his contacts would be the same tack presented to others. Years of friendship tends to strip away the bullshxt, and the only reason Pete is getting wound up by this thread is that he is not prepared to believe that what he is being told independantly by his 'sources' is not true, and why should he?

As usual (and no disrespect to Chicago) Chris is being very stubborn in acknowledging anyone elses point of view as remotely accurate, which, to be honest, does get highly irritating. That said, I too think you are both correct. In fact, everyone thinks that everyone else is correct except Chicago, who thinks that he alone is correct, which is par for the course and at this stage, no indication of what is really the case, because as I said earlier, he is not open to contradiction or to allowing other opinions to influence his own, even in the face of first hand accounts.

There are currently 2 or 3 Pro teams in Paintball that are worth the money they get. I count Joy in those 3 teams. The others are fortunate and for thier sakes I hope their good fortune lasts a little while longer. If you are a European Pro team in the MS and are getting any level of sponsorship you should be very grateful, as you're not really worth it.
No offence intended, I know many such teams and know how dedicated they can be, but in the real World, you are so far below the top 3 teams that are actually worth the cash you are a mere speck in the distance.

 

[Missy-Q]

I do tend to write long posts. I think I should just write my post, then send it to Magued for the 5-line succinct version.

As for Dynasty, the fact that they are not representative is exactly my point. They were at 'the top' for a while, then not, and are now doing well in 7-man again. But there are other teams that have done just as or nearly as well at various points - the Russians, XSV, Rage... or if you want to go back far enough, Aftershock, etc. Those teams had just as much opportunity to brand themselves but failed to.

Now, I'm not going to argue that it's fair to compare everyone head-to-head vs. Dynasty and expect everyone else to do as well as Dynasty has. But I *DO* think it's fair to expect everyone to do the same kinds of things Dynasty has. Some are doing some of it, but I don't think any other team has put as much effort into their branding as Dynasty has.

Yes, they have done a great job. Alex's Dad gave him somehgreat advice back in the day and they listened. Dynasty have been, and remain, the team that will give any sponsor the most ROI

 

[Chicago]

he is not open to contradiction or to allowing other opinions to influence his own, even in the face of first hand accounts.

That's not true. I just tend not to wade into discussions without first considering various opinions, so it's pretty rare that someone brings up something I hadn't considered before opening my mouth in the first place. Then I unfortunately seem to appear inflexible when quickly discounting arguments I'd already considered.

As for the topic at hand, I don't doubt that the people Pete knows are telling Pete exactly what Pete is saying they're telling them. I just also think those same people may have also not realized that even if the sales had stayed the same or gone up, they would have ended up cutting team sponsorship anyway (or gone out of business trying to maintain it).

I just don't buy into the whole "Because the paintball industry people say so!" reasoning. Just because someone happens to run a paintball company doesn't necessarily mean they're right about any given issue.

 

[ChuckC]

So, the question is: How do Pro teams improve the ROI for their sponsors?

They could win the vast majority of tournaments they enter, i.e. Dynasty...

Or...what?

Most Pro teams never win tournaments....a smaller percentage win one every year or so...and the smallest percentage are those teams that win more often than they lose: Dynasty, Russian Legion and Joy. The latter really don't have to put much effort in to it outside of winning (not to take anything away from the effort put into winning). The middle group, due to the basic fact that there are a lot more companies out there than those who sponsor the top three, will likely continue to get support. But those teams who never win...what are they to do?

 

[Missy-Q]

That's not true. I just tend not to wade into discussions without first considering various opinions, so it's pretty rare that someone brings up something I hadn't considered before opening my mouth in the first place. Then I unfortunately seem to appear inflexible when quickly discounting arguments I'd already considered.

As for the topic at hand, I don't doubt that the people Pete knows are telling Pete exactly what Pete is saying they're telling them. I just also think those same people may have also not realized that even if the sales had stayed the same or gone up, they would have ended up cutting team sponsorship anyway (or gone out of business trying to maintain it).

I just don't buy into the whole "Because the paintball industry people say so!" reasoning. Just because someone happens to run a paintball company doesn't necessarily mean they're right about any given issue.

Yes, I understand that this is your point.
I either have more respect for the 'paintball industry people' in question or perhaps have a different perspective on the topic to you. I remain in agreement with the majority of what you are saying, but like I said, I don't think you give people enough credit for understanding basic business practice and managing thier own companies.
From your perspective it is difficult to see what effect (if any) a sponsored Pro team would have on sales for any given firm. From, lets say, Dave Youngbloods perspective, it is easier to monitor and calculate. In my mind, and in this random example, this would make him a better source of accurate information.

 

[Robbo]

Chris, the most irritating thing about cockdwarf was not the fact he was an arrogant pig who really didn't have the intellect he thought he did, oh no, that wasn't it at all, it was the fact that he just couldn't see that his arrogance affected his reasoning ... that type of blindness (leading to fallacious arguments) was the most infuriating part of his character.

You are going down that road, and you do so, not because your take on things is any more accurate (because it is not), not because your information sources are more reliable (because they are not) but simply because you wish to win the argument, this is what blinded cockdwarf and dare I say it, you, to some degree, in this thread at least.

Of course, you or others might accuse me of the same thing but there is one fundamental differnce...just go re-read the posts both I and you have made, and this time read them as though somebody else wrote them and if you manage to do that, perhaps your opinion might change, leastwise I hope it would if you are being honest with yourself.

 

[Tugais]

Probably the best thread I ever read on a paintball forum ! Thank you

Anyway, I'd like to give my humble opinion and my point of view about the ideas/facts given on this thread. All my thoughts are relative to my recent experience in the paintball industry.

I'm new in the industry (just eight months), I am, first of all, a paintball player who thinks that changes can be made. As many of you said before, the majority of people running the industry are or were paintball players. Those people are friends, or not, but in fact they know pretty well each other.

I think that the first reason why the team get sponsored was friendship. Many of the teams sponsored today get their support because they knew someone at the right spot.

Today the things are slowly but surely evolving, some people like me who came from different businesses are looking to these sponsors. And you know what ? We don't understand why shops, fields, manufacturers are wasting their money ... Very few teams deserve to get "cash".

This is the entire sponsoring thing that must be reviewed and reorganised. Teams must be rated at their true level, and sponsorship has to be appropriate to them. But for now, they are not enough external companies involved in the industry to change the actual routine.

Change will come, this is a matter of time.

Cheers

 

[Missy-Q]

Probably the best thread I ever read on a paintball forum ! Thank you

Been hanging around the Nation huh.

 

[Magued]

Chicago.

Dynasty isnt the only team trying to get their team out there.
Here is our latest effort to get Volvo and Ikea on board!

This will raise our ROI with aprox 48% according to my calculations..

Magued