Cheat and be proud?

[TJ Lambini]

There are?

Didn't see any of 'em leaping to defend themselves when they were all tarnished with tha same brush, and we got 2,800 members here and a further 40k who pop in once in a while for a look-see...

And tha message and tha person who deliver it are of equal importance, surely...

Mother Teresa: I strive for world peace and do all I can to alleviate suffering
Gorge Bush: I strive for world peace and do all I can to alleviate suffering

Same message, one you believe, one makes you reach for your chainsaw...

 

[Hotpoint]

There are?

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Didn't see any of 'em leaping to defend themselves when they were all tarnished with tha same brush, and we got 2,800 members here and a further 40k who pop in once in a while for a look-see...

And tha message and tha person who deliver it are of equal importance, surely...

Mother Teresa: I strive for world peace and do all I can to alleviate suffering
Gorge Bush: I strive for world peace and do all I can to alleviate suffering

Same message, one you believe, one makes you reach for your chainsaw...

Well firstly I glad to see I'm not the only one who wants to take a Chainsaw to a Nun (Sorry... went to Catholic School)

How many of the 2800 regularly post anyway? I sincerely doubt that they are all cheating *******s even if the great majority are. I personally stayed well away from the RL thread (except for the Descartes/Robbo humour which I couln't resist) because of how heated it became and I suspect many did likewise

In any case when I tell people I've been playing since 1989 and I've honestly never wiped a hit nobody freaking believes me anyway so why bother saying it?

Well is the message okay coming from me? Hey I may be outnumbered but I'm happy with the moral high-ground if not the fact it's lonely up here

 

[Manning26]

Originally posted by rancid



but I was talking about the individual's conscience and the general public and other player's perceptions... ie if they were in the same situ they'd do the same, therefore what's the problem?


ie a shift of emphasis from the player to the marshal. As Urban says quality of reffing?

I think that says it all right there. In my opinion, 'cheating', 'playing the gray', whatever you want to call it, it IS becoming more accepted in the tournament community. As the youth come into the sport, they play it as such. People depend on the refs more than ever, because they now can! Well sorta', my point is, we REQUIRED the honor system in the woods, it was amazingly easy to cheat, but now everything's in the open.

 

[Urban]

Originally posted by rancid

Exactly! So why do we all gasp when it happens in paintball?

I think part of the problem is that we are trying/hoping that we can be different to all the other sports out there. Maybe that's because the nature of our sport is fundamentally different to every other sport out there, or maybe it's because it's a new and evolving sport, who knows.

Agreed. That's the point. But what would you/anyone be labelled?

For an incident of not spotting a hit, I'd wouldn't expect to be labled anything because you can't tell whether I did it with intent or honestly didn't spot it. The arguement for intent got done to death on the RL Gun's Thread. Unless you have proof of intent or a damn good track record for cheating you can't classify it as cheating.

For wiping I'd expect to be labeled a cheating cnut, and to be honest, I'd have asked for it. With so many people watching from the sidelines these days, and the camera's that are starting to appear, in my humble opinion, it's going to get harder and harder to wipe/covertly cheat and get away with it. The marshalls may not spot it there and then but you can bet someone will post up a link to a video of X from Y team doing Z if they catch them cheating on camera during the final rounds of NextBigTourney (tm)

... until we accept cheating as part and parcel how can we possibly hope to control it? ie a shift of emphasis from the player to the marshal.

Good point. Very good point. Infact so good a point I don't have an answer!

At least not until we get a independant, trained, dedicated marshalling organising that doesn't give a fcuk about money!

Urban

 

[Buddha 3]

Excellent topic, Rancid!

Quite true what you say about other sports putting the emphasis more on the refs then the players.
When I still played American football (oh no, not another one of those stories!) I did a lot of things that were against the rules. I can't even remember how many ankles I've twisted during pile ups, or the number of punches I've given during tackles, the times I've gone for an illegal holding, and so on.
Simply put, it's a choice that you have to willingly make. If an individual is willing to cheat, fine. But that individual must also be prepared to accept any penalties resulting from his actions. Also, there's the chance that his teammates will damn him for incurring that penalty. If someone is willing to take that, then go ahead. In football I was more than willing to not only push the envelope, but shred it to pieces. In paintball I'm more reserved. Why? Because the penalty is more severe, is one of the reasons. When I got caught in football, all we got is some yardage taken from us, but we had their offense intimidated, which seriously increased our chances of winning, so well worth it. In paintball, if I get caught, I get pulled AND a teammate as well, seriously hampering our chances of winning.
As I see it, you get penalised for cheating. You only get penalised when you get caught. So it ain't cheating if you don't get caught.
If we want to see a decline in cheating, we need better reffing. It's that simple. We can talk until our faces are blue about morality and such, but let's face it, on avarage humanity's morality is non existant. So we'll never get rid of cheating by saying 'ooh, that's bad'. Much respect to teams that manage to win without cheating, and many hawk eyed refs to teams that do cheat.

 

[skullicious]

I agree with the guy on the military code of honor type hang up.
Or the way paintball is a kind of battle where if someone beats you u should accept it with honor and learn from it.

 

[John Molloy]

I played Rugby and football when I was younger and also tried to get away with what I could, I don't wipe and as has already been said don't play on IF I KNOW I'VE BEEN HIT however as has also been said if you get hit in a place you can't see the Marshalls have to pick it up. Getting a team to marshall a field is a cheap alternative to using professional referee's and their are few (if any) professional ref's in this sport. Ameteur Rugby has dedicated ref's for all levels of play as does football, and all are acountable (be it the RFU or the FA). Each of those sports has recognised that one official for a match is inadiquate and the Linesmen became defacto referee'sadvising the central ref. Now their are calls for (as in cricket) the fourth official to watch a monitor and inform the ref of any fowl play.
On the average tourney field their are anything from 3 to 5 marshalls and occasionally they are on the field, I have seen games where the marshalls have (in effect) ignored the game on their field and watched games on other fields. Professional (when applied to marshalls) should not mean that they get paid to marshall (though that is nice ) it should mean that they are good at their job, seeing the paint and shell on the elbow of an air system. Its not easy and a marshall is the brunt of much critisism (sounds like football) on almost every decision, various places now offer training for tournie marshalls. It should be mandatory for tournie marshalls to have attended such training.
just my take on this and if you actually read this post to the end WELL DONE it was just as tiring to write

 

[Meyer]

If its just a nick on your hopper, play. Its the responsibility of the official to determine if it was an elimination. If you see the side of your hopper completely change hue from a ball, then call for a paint check, but if its small enough for the reff not to notice, then it shouldn't be deemed playing on. Some people might feel uneasy about playing the gray area like that, but realize that most other teams will take that advantage, and its a whole lot easier to live with yourself with a first place trophy in your arms than a dream of what might have been.

 

[rancid]

I'm stunned !

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
Rancid put forth an interesting topic !

(*marking down the day in my calender*)

On the topic:

I think INTENTION is the big divider here.

"cheating" is a very broad word, which can't really be applied to the cricket example - except if viewed from an extremely "moral" point of view (i.e. - "you know the umpire made a bad call - correct it yourself...").

It is generally accepted in any sport, that if an umpire/judge/marshal makes a bad call, the players accept it as a part of the game/sport and carry on (albeit moaning big time about being cheated after the game).... if they end up loosing.

Intentional cheating is a whole other kettle of fish - in any sport !

- Maradonas "hand of god", Pantanis doping, etc. are prime examples that intentional cheating is NOT accepted in other sports.

Another important thing is, that when intentional cheating in some sports is somewhat overlooked (i.e. Jay's US Football example), it is mostly when it is cheating that does not go totally against the whole point of the game/sport.

Wiping goes entirely against the SOUL of paintball - the point of the game is not getting hit - and if you get hit and then procede to remove the hit, you a touching on something very basic to our sport - the whole thing becomes pointles if such behaviour is accepted.

So - by best explanation is: Intention and basic respect for the sport.

Nick

P.S.:

T.J. - When you don't cheat, you don't need to defend yourself, unless specifically being named. - I've had countles discussions with former teammates and captains, who thought me stupid for playing totally clean, even to the extend of calling myself out without judges being near me - and even in NPPL/MIllennium finals games.

(hang on - I just need to polish my halo a bit (no people... not the loader !))

You cheeky *******!

Wait until you see my next thread starter: "tournament paintball and why it's holding our sport back" followed quickly by "Denmark: why?".

I still think we're putting the onus on the payer, and I'm not sure that applies in many other sports.

Meyer's response is interesting. I think there's probably a ton of people out there who would be horrified, despite the fact they'd probably do the same in that particular situation.

 

[Tyger]

Forgive me now, what's left of my "Nice guy" status has pretty much been blown away due to circumstances. If you want to know what they are, e-mail me and I'll tell you. Otherwise, just take this as someone who's sick of the bull**** and knows his post will be edited for cussing.

Ok, here's the deal. Paintball is still playing in the past. We all get all uppity about cheating becasue there's a belief that paintball is an 'honor' sport. Paintball is a 'combat' sport like Fencing, and there is an unspoken 'code' that all players are held up to. And don't ask about cheating in fencing, I know a lot of tricks.

When the honor code is broken, players feel betrayed. So the answer is to change the culture so it's more like 'traditional' sports, which means that the refs need to become better at enforcing rules and seeing penaltys happen. Problem with this is that, frankly, THE REFS SUCK!!!!!!! Look, when the refs are accused of cheating ON BEHALF OF A TEAM PLAYING, then there's a MAJOR problem! In ANY OTHER SPORT this would start an investigation, in paintball it's considered the price of doing buisness.

Not to mention that I've seen a tendancy lately on rec fields of "laissez-faire" reffing. The ref stands on the sideline, and just says "Ok, you can start now." Realise that rec ball takes cues from tourney ball, so it kinda concerns me there. But when I see the cheating go up in rec ball, that genuinely pisses me off.

What I see happening is the move for paintball to stop being an honor sport, and become more like 'traditional' sports where the ref makes the calls, not the players. Problem is, and this is where this ties into the above, the refs SUCK! The refs can be bought, intimidated, or at worst they really don't give an airborn reproductive act with a chunk of rolling boiled bread. (A flying f*** with a bowled bagel). So players that choose to cheat will be able to get away with it with impunity until the refs actually grow a pair and get on the ball.

Solutions : Let's assume tha the players will adopt the "Refs have to call it" mentality 100%. Ok, fine. Refs need to know the rules, enforce the rules, and be ready to tell a player "You say one more word to me and I'm throwing your ass out of the tournament, capiche?" The people who RUN tournaments have to be 110% willing to back up the calls made by refs, and not back down when another player, who is also the head of a company sponsoring the event, threatens to pull sponsorship if they don't get a call thier way. And players, ALL PLAYERS, then need to be informed that the refs won't take ANY bull****. Not in the captains meeting, but before every game the head ref should get the players together and say "No bull**** guys, don't argue with me or my staff, play ball."

On the players side, just tell me which way we're going, I'll adapt. I'm cool like that. If we're playing honor, No problem. If we're playing 'refs call it always', no problem. Either way, I just wanna know in advance. I like to plan my day.

Either play in the past, hold onto that historical chunk of the game that we started with in 1981, or give a collective "SCREW THAT!" and play hardball 24/7/365. The latter means the refs have to step up, be professional, and ONLY ref tournaments like other umpires / officials. But, hey, that's the price of "Progress".

-Tyger

(NOT a very PC camper right now.)