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Are we just a bunch of saps or do we have any power?

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Thanks, Pete.

One more thing. How wide a net do you want to toss?

It has occurred to me in recent months that the genesis of our decline on the U.S. side--not in standard of play but in numbers of teams--came about for a number of reasons that we largely brought down on ourselves. For one the desire to see competitive paintball recognized as legitmate sport ended up raising the bar for everybody. It was only the real deal if you were on the field every weekend and putting in training time during the week. Committed to lots of time, money & effort in training alone. Etc. With tournaments becoming the test of your progress. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that--only that I think it raised the bar well above the level of willingness and commitment of a lot of otherwise regular players. Do you want those players too--or just the "serious" ones?
 
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Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Thanks, Pete.

One more thing. How wide a net do you want to toss?

It has occurred to me in recent months that the genesis of our decline on the U.S. side--not in standard of play but in numbers of teams--came about for a number of reasons that we largely brought down on ourselves. For one the desire to see competitive paintball recognized as legitmate sport ended up raising the bar for everybody. It was only the real deal if you were on the field every weekend and putting in training time during the week. Committed to lots of time, money & effort in training alone. Etc. With tournaments becoming the test of your progress. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that--only that I think it raised the bar well above the level of willingness and commitment of a lot of otherwise regular players. Do you want those players too--or just the "serious" ones?

Paul, I think we need to get away from that mainstream paradigm of paintball we all hitched our asses upon best exampled by our somewhat slavish adoption and present adherence to XBall.
It is now an anachronism and more like a monkey on our back than a springboard for mainstream success and should be ditched immediately IMHO.

As for how far we cast that net?
We need to forget elitist models of operation, we need an 'include as many as possible' policy to take us through this next phase of our evolution.
It's obvious to me this next phase of our development is an important one because we really do need to think about what we are doing and where we are heading, and these are considerations our industry hasn't been too good at doing in the past.

I agree 100% with your 'raising of the bar too far' comment but I think that has a natural self-limiter built in; the present financial situation you guys over there find yourselves in will restrict the amount of gun-time a lot of guys have and this is why we need a more socialist approach to any new paradigm .. I realise this won't go down too well in such a capitalist-minded nation but hey, we all gotta adapt sometimes Paul.

From now on, it's all about creating an infrastructure that attracts the masses, gives the masses value for money and also ties that mass to some form of membership scheme.

That is how I see it for you guys ....and so Paul, what's your opinion of what to do ?
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
First I gotta say I'm still not altogether clear on what your goal(s) are beyond a fairly nebulous kinda all-inclusive one size fits all tourney ball that everyone in turn will love and flock to. (Pitiful grammar but you get the idea.) Okay, I'm exaggerating, a bit, to make a point. If the Fed or whoever can't offer simple, easy to understand goals with a power point presentation of how to get to there from here nothing is going to happen. (Easy for me to say. :)

From my side I don't see any reason to change from my past positions. I have long advocated a move away from the national traveling carnival to affiliated regional leagues that culminate annually in a national championship event that includes the best teams from all the affiliated regions. That is a model for competitive paintball I think we can grow and sustain. (Both the PSP & NPPL are busy building affiliate networks--granted, not necessarily to fulfill my vision but close enough for now.) That particular track would be the serious tournament track. You and your team can jump in whenever and wherever--within some basic competitive guidelines--and compete with the goal of winning a national championship and/or moving up the competitive divisional ladder.
The Pro teams are the only ones who travel around the country as they make appearances at a circuit of regional events and the annual championship event; like WC.

To that national track I would add a second, parallel track, that would be defined more by what it isn't. It isn't the serious track. The serious track requires ID cards and registration in a (the) players database. The second track requires you be outside that system. The second track is local 3-man events or for 5-man woodsball events or anything else that is happening on a local or field specific level that could attract any sort of paintball player--other than the guy already commited to the national track.
The local track scene can be as diverse as all the different areas of the country and over time you discover what works where (and what doesn't) as the national people more or less leave the grassroots types alone. Meanwhile, some portion of the local track people will eventually choose to participate in the national track.

That's the short form. ;-)
 

Biscuit

Well-Known Member
Mar 21, 2006
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here`s a thought Robbo now when you think back to the good days of uk ball
the kit we used in the woods was the same kit when we moved to hyperball and then sup-air:)
now if you play woodsball but want to have a go at tournie you can`t as your kit ,
especially your marker just won`t do the job.
how many first time own gunners buy a Tippmann as their first marker,they can play on site ,they can play woodsball and scenario games no problem,but they can`t play a tournie as they would get butt.
raped how about having a mech only div at all events,
or better still all new teams have to play a one battery div,this means you can have an electro gun but only us a gravity hopper,or a mech with a force feed hopper this would even up the haves and have nots,but also it would mean alot of new players would concentrate on playing not on the latest kit as it would not matter.
how many new players buy all the latest kit ,costs them a fortune then can`t afford to play.
we have no slow progression through our hobby/sport its all or nothing
the best example i can give you is lewis hamilton
look at his progress from go karts to f1 it was slow and steady, not from one to the other but that is what we are asking new players to do
 

Missy-Q

300lb of Chocolate Love
Jul 31, 2007
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Harlem, NY
I think the problem is the one we always had, and I don't think the US guys really understand the UK market - it is very different from the N American market.

UK ball has never developed a rec-market. The rec market is approx 70% of the US market.

The rec market is the gap between rental play and organised team events (whether they be speedball or woodsball). In the UK it's called 'walk-on' business. In the US/Canada it's often called 'renegade play' or 'back-yard play'

The clear reason that this did not develop is the constraints on land. In many states, and in all of Canada, you can drive an hour or less and be in an environment where you can just park-up and go play paintball with some friends. You simply can't do that in the UK as all the land is used, for one thing or another, and the open country is either farmed or protected as national park. Also, people don't typically have a home on 10 acres of land in the UK. This is not uncommon outside of the US/Canadian cities.

It's not OK to blame the fields. The fields set up to cater to rental play and complaining that they don't cater to walk-ons is like complaining that you can't get a Big mac at Burger King. It's simply not what those business owners sell. They sell rental play.

The more big games there are in the UK, the more walk-ons will increase. Big games cater to, and attract, these players.

That said, there are more places to play now than in the late 90's when UK ball was king of Europe. That said.....



Walk-on business has always been the weakest area of UK ball, BUT, that was the same back in the day, when UK teams were dominating the Euro Circuit and evfen competing state-side.
So, my conclusion, based on that info, is that the lack of competitive tournament teams has nothing to do with the state of the walk-on play.
 

Gadget

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
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I think the UK market is now split, a situation which didn't really exist back in the day. Back in the early 90s everyone wore camo regardless of being a punter, walk-on or tournament player. Aside from the odd arena event, 95% of tournaments were in the woods, so there was little difference between the three styles of play, just a difference in aquired skill level and commitment. Today a player has to make a clear choice - do they want the camo and military trappings of scenario play, or do they want the lairy colours of tournament play? There are plenty of people who cross-over between the two, but just look at the main internet communities - p8ntballer caters mainly for tournament play and ukscenario for scenario - the community is split and lots of people stick to one style of play.

The only thing that could really fuse the two areas back together is a return to the woods for tournament play, but there are too many people who love sup air for that to ever happen.
 

Reiner

Rec Field Owner
I think the problem is the one we always had, and I don't think the US guys really understand the UK market - it is very different from the N American market.

UK ball has never developed a rec-market. The rec market is approx 70% of the US market.

The rec market is the gap between rental play and organised team events (whether they be speedball or woodsball). In the UK it's called 'walk-on' business. In the US/Canada it's often called 'renegade play' or 'back-yard play'

The clear reason that this did not develop is the constraints on land. In many states, and in all of Canada, you can drive an hour or less and be in an environment where you can just park-up and go play paintball with some friends. You simply can't do that in the UK as all the land is used, for one thing or another, and the open country is either farmed or protected as national park. Also, people don't typically have a home on 10 acres of land in the UK. This is not uncommon outside of the US/Canadian cities.

It's not OK to blame the fields. The fields set up to cater to rental play and complaining that they don't cater to walk-ons is like complaining that you can't get a Big mac at Burger King. It's simply not what those business owners sell. They sell rental play.

The more big games there are in the UK, the more walk-ons will increase. Big games cater to, and attract, these players.

That said, there are more places to play now than in the late 90's when UK ball was king of Europe. That said.....



Walk-on business has always been the weakest area of UK ball, BUT, that was the same back in the day, when UK teams were dominating the Euro Circuit and evfen competing state-side.
So, my conclusion, based on that info, is that the lack of competitive tournament teams has nothing to do with the state of the walk-on play.
Missy-Q, it would seem to me that there is an untapped market in the UK for gear owning recreational play (non-competitive play). I'm really surprised more commercial fields don't have specific days/hours for gear owners to play. Having only rental play is fine and not a bad business model, but as paintball becomes more mainstream, it's only natural for players to want to get their own equipment.

How would people who take up golf more seriously feel if they had to either rent golf clubs or only play competitive golf if they wanted to use their own equipment.

Although only allowing rental gear at a commercial field fosters a stronger market for occasional players (punters as you Brits call them I think), it seems to leave out a whole step in between renters and competitive players. Not quite sure why more aren't tapping into that market.
 
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StubbsPKS

Din Eidyn
Sep 21, 2011
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WARNING: Long post ahead.

I came over to the UK from the East Coast of the US. I had airball two fields within a 20 minute drive of my TINY little town, and I played for a team that would do tournaments and other events at these and slightly further away fields.

When I got here, I was crushed to find that the only fields available to me were woodsball fields. I have been looking for an air ball field to play on since I got to this country, and while I still haven't found one, I finally found a field in Edinburgh that has a speedball feel to it.

I managed to find a group of guys from both Edinburgh an Napier uni and we're finally getting a team together with the aim of playing tournament ball. The only problem is that we have to travel down to England to play any events.

We have a local field (Urban Paintball) who was kind enough to offer us the ability to play as their "home team" on their field to make sure some of our newer players have the basics down, but we still have no place to practice on an air field.

As far as the cost being prohibitive to starting up new teams, you better believe that is the main concern with all our players.

Until it is financially viable to do so, there can be no sustainable or real change. This requires hobbyist and tournament players to pay more, simples. The one constant you are unable to change (and shame on you for not mentioning it) is the ridiculous entitlement felt by Paintballers in the UK and that entitlement is fed by access to cheap bullets. The Fed needs to legislate here, otherwise people will always look to play for the cheapest possible and there are retailers whom do sell Paintballs at, close to or below trade (it's human nature, init). You only have to look at responses in this thread to see how far the player base is detached from reality and unable to view UK Paintball holistically. Just because you spoke to a few punters does not entitle you to discounted bullets, well certainly not to 35quid a box.
Let's take your £35 a box and do a little math here. If we have 15 people on the team, let's say 10 make it every week for training. Since we're just starting out, we've been trying to limit ourselves to shooting 1 case between two people at training so that's £175 spent on paint per week.

Now, we also show up once a week to walk ons at the field to encourage the punters to get more involved in paintball (and we get to play in between punter matches while they're resting or getting more paint or whatever). Since this is actual games and not drills, we can easily go through a box of paint each. Let's say 5 of us show up to that as well. That's another £175 on paint that day.

That's £350 on paint EVERY SINGLE WEEK. That comes out to £1400 a month just for training. Point me toward another team sport that costs the team £1400 a week for training without including their kit cost.

Add on to that the cost of a decent marker (let's say another £200 for a used DM6 or something) that's £3000 in gear costs for the team. Now you need packs, pods, bottles, jerseys, playing pants, shoes, etc.

Now we're finally ready to play a tournament! We have entry fee (not sure how much this is in the UK as we haven't been yet), more paint, travel down to England, hotel, food, etc.

So, really, I think if you start charging more for paint, you're going to lose a LOT of people.

Everyone is complaining about the state of the sport in the UK, but no one seems to mention that not a single sup'air field can be easily found in the entirety of Scotland :(

The second track requires you be outside that system. The second track is local 3-man events or for 5-man woodsball events or anything else that is happening on a local or field specific level that could attract any sort of paintball player--other than the guy already commited to the national track.
The local track scene can be as diverse as all the different areas of the country and over time you discover what works where (and what doesn't) as the national people more or less leave the grassroots types alone. Meanwhile, some portion of the local track people will eventually choose to participate in the national track.
This is how it worked near me when I was getting started. You did all the local competitions with your team and when you were FINALLY good enough you would go and hit a local CPL, PSP, or NPPL event.

I think the UK market is now split, a situation which didn't really exist back in the day. Back in the early 90s everyone wore camo regardless of being a punter, walk-on or tournament player. Aside from the odd arena event, 95% of tournaments were in the woods, so there was little difference between the three styles of play, just a difference in aquired skill level and commitment. Today a player has to make a clear choice - do they want the camo and military trappings of scenario play, or do they want the lairy colours of tournament play?
I guess this has to do with the market size being relatively small here in the UK as opposed to the US, but the market is definitely split in the US. Scenario players have their own events, etc.

One of the fields I went to even had two sets of refs: those to ref the woods guys and those to ref the airball fields.


The bottom line is that if we want this sport to grow in the UK (which I would assume we all do), then we need to get together and get organized as Robbo says. There are plenty of people willing to pay the high cost associated with breaking into this sport, and there are even people who are willing to travel a couple hundred miles for the chance to say they've participated in a tournament.

The CPPS is doing a great thing this year in having a separate rookie bracket with a paint limit and different play format for people to cut their teeth on, and they're VERY willing to help new teams to be able to attend these events.

Robbo, if there is anything myself or the players on my team can do to help kickstart this sport and get it back to it's rightful place PLEASE let me know. The idea of regional leagues which then have an overall tournament with the best from these leagues is the first step in my eyes. If we can get people playing LOCALLY then it will greatly reduce cost for them, which means they can save up for the bigger national cup event(s).
 

southernP8nt

Active Member
Aug 20, 2008
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Stubbs, I do agree that it is unbelievably difficult to get a new team running because of hte costs involved and I do think that there should be some major changes to the way things are done. Whether it is creating rookie divisions with rules to keep costs down, or leagues having some kit that they can rent out for the duration of a tournament to allow teams to get some experience of tournaments, just something to try and make it easier for people to get into.

One other thing I would love to see more of is teams setting up acadamies, providing the kit for new players, giving them training, getting them to play tournaments. It would allow new players to get into the sport without having to fork our a huge amount of cash upfront to buy kit, and if they enjoy the sport and wanted to continue then they would be able to do so without feeling isolated, because they would have already had experience of playing & training with a team and would be a damn sight more knowledgable than they would if they were thrown in at the deep end by themselves.

Perfect example of this as far as I am aware is Academy 49 run by Marc Harwood. He bought a load of Dangerous Power G3s, decent entry level tournament markers, and got plenty of youngsters who hadn't played before involved, made it as cheap as possible for them to start, provided a training site, sorted out the paint. It meant that kids could try the sport without having to fork our money for kit straight away, without having to search all over for somewhere to train and now he has a team of talented young players who have all progressed well, bought their own kit and love the sport.

If there were more people like Marc actively trying to get people involved in the sport, accepting some financial outlay to begin with, then I think the paintball scene in the UK would have a much brighter future.

I know for a fact that when I started playing about 5 years back that if there was anything like what Marc is running near me that I would have kept playing, rather than sticking with it for 6 months and then stopping for 4 years. I bought all my own kit up front, payed my way for tournaments & training, and after 6 months I couldn't afford it any more, so I had to sell my kit. If there was something like Academy 49 I would have been able to start playing without spending hundreds of pounds on kit, would have had more money for tournament entries, and could have played for longer, but as nothing like that existed I had no choice but to give up the sport for a few years.

Anyway, rant over!