Are we just a bunch of saps or do we have any power?

[stongle]

making money isnt greed it business.

ive never had any bad dealing with a site about prices. i do find punters get riped off but players get sepcial deals and these tend to be £10 entry £25-£30 a box. not to shabby in my eyes

its all about structure. once thats sorted it all falls into place.
just like any business the venue(s), price of product, the return, needs to be correct

I disagree your example is a "sustainable business model" for any industry.

The problem is selling paint to YOU at 25-30 a box, not the pricing model for one off customers. YOU and other novice players (and by Novice that's nearly all bar 4-5 teams in the UK) buying paint at close to trade means there is no margin for any business to support the Hobbyist base, let alone tournaments. I'd agree there are some poor rental sites and something should be done, but good sites offer a full days play for a fair price. Certainly cheaper per hour than other alternatives, e.g, Go Karting, Clays, power boating etc.

Your business model applied to other industries would have Nissan selling Micras at £40k but GTRs at 25k, "cos like it's a racing car and I've got 9 points on my licence so can handle the power". Plus racing is a sport so, gimme some more incentivised buying discount. Oh, and whilst you're at it I tracked the GTR at the Ring so I need some more tyres, gratis. Have you ever actually tried that line in a car dealership or Kwik-Fit - "I need some Potenza 255/40 ZRF 20's, please. Not paying more than 15p a corner". Any other business or industry would be pissing their pants at the claims and entitlement felt by the UK player base.

If there is zero margin in the hobbyist and tournament player base (other than excessive green fees and tournament entry), where exactly do you think people are making margin. Oh right, customers / rental players.

In my opinion, the recovery path for UK Paintball is as follows (and yes it will be difficult and take time):t

1. Limit the supply of bullets to teams and individuals. Tournaments are single brand paint only (really you're not sponsored, just incentivised to buy)
2. Set a sustainable pricing structure for each level of play. Tournament is going to cost more, but we're saturated with jokers anyway so a bit of wastage won't be a problem.
3. Good rental sites will invest in the "paying" customer experience and also be able to offer better return customer experience, because there is a return for them in doing so.
4. Poor sites will eventually close up as they do not offer the entertainment experience of "good" sites whom reinvest in their single and repeat customer base.
5. Repeat custom leads to a higher customer to hobbyist transformation rate

Of course this path won't be easy, but nothing else will force the change required.

 

[Exile]

You can say sites making money out of punters isnt selfish but if they could get paint at lets say £10 a case, how many of these sites would pass on the saving?

Would they be selfish if they used that money to reinvest in their business? The better sites in the country already do.

Not many would be the answer, and ripping off the punter is where a large part of the problem with getting people into the sport lies.

No, providing the customer with a bad experience is the problem - cost isn't the issue, the quality of the experience is.

The regular baller is already hooked and playing regular but these are what you want from the punter that just visits for the day isnt it? you want them to come back but if they get ripped off, why should they ?

Define "ripping off" - paying £50-60 for a day filled with fun and excitement?
Sounds pretty good to me, I can spend that in the pub in an evening without even trying and if Glen (Stongle) is there then you can triple that once the "ladies of horizontal refreshment" and ruby's on the way home are factored in...

Its all well and good giving the regular paintballer a discount but that amounts to nothing when what you really need is regular fresh blood.

So concentrate on the experience and make it worth the money. Cheaper does not equal better.

 

[DJForbes]

there is a differnce between me and a punter.

i have my own gear, i am there weekly and am the one talking to the punters getting them to return with there own gear.

thats like me owning a GTR and getting the fuel at a discount while the guy in the micra now wants a GTR




i should laos add that a punter wont know a good site from a bad site. therfore bad sites will continue to be around

 

[Robbo]

Exile, the points you make are valid ones ... that is of course, if you work upon the premise we have a responsible roster of site owners .. we do not.

We have a few site owners who do a great job .. we have others who do not ... but it is my experience the majority aren't capable of seeing much past their back-pocket.

There is no moral standing we can appeal to when addressing these site owners; for the most part they only understand pound notes .. the majority aren't businessmen at all, though ironically, they are in business.
They also lack the imagination necessary along with the inability to think outside their bank account which of course all goes to ensure things stay pretty much the same ...

I can only approximate a general answer to all this and it's the following:-
whatever we do, it has to start small and grow organically; that is, we need to begin this revolution with a holistic approach to our sport [in terms of understanding the job in hand and developing a program] but at the same time trying to create the component parts as we go along.

There are candidates for this with things like academies and clubs etc but these have to be run hand in hand with site owners and so we not only need the political will to impose academies, we also need to generate a list of site owners who will jump on board.
To do that, we need to make it financially viable and attractive for those site owners otherwise it's a 'no go'.

Once we have a few of these academies established, we need to make sure we support them [top down] with our events .. and that means, somehow dovetailing the academy teams with conventional team event structures .. at the beginning, there won't be enough academy teams to substantiate their own events but eventually there will come a time when they can .. at that point, the critical mass isn't far off because once critical mass is reached, the job's done .. it all takes care of itself after that but like a lot of things, we need to get it there.

And so, we need a practical blueprint, the political will to authorise it, the industry [Fed] to support it, a few site owners to embrace it, the UKPSF to provide an adminstrative backbone, promoters to integrate it in thier events and most importantly, the players to buy into it ...

This is of course a general answer and not too specific, and of course it includes elements of other people's suggestions .. but if we really are to get anywhere, we do need to lay it out at some point ..

The first thing that becomes apparent is just how fragmented we are and it's obvious that's where our biggest problem lays ... well, that and the fact every single one of those requirements just mentioned hasn't succeeded in being intergated with any other in the past ..

 

[basktm]

i'm sorry mate, but £50-£60 does not get you a fun day, its gets you what you think is fun, i havent been to many 'punter' days, maybe 5-6 and have never managed to spend just £50.

£50 will get you a good day out, as long as you dont fire much, worry about your paint use, and then make sure you have another £40-£50 to buy more paint for the afternoon, £40 gets you an extra 500, so now you've done £80 per person, i can take the whole family out for a day on that kind of money.

most sight days i've been on 500 balls is no where near enough, even though most of the day is spent with a blocked or jammed marker.

and how can you say sites charging £125 for 2k paint is fair ???

Dont get me wrong, i have no issue's with sites, they are their to make money, the same as any business, which is completely fair and its their right to make money, as for the 'better sites' for most of the public, its not about that its about distance and price, but it does wind me up when people say its good value, its a expensive luxury, one few can afford in todays climate.

If you make it affordable to go a regular basis, then you will get more going, more mainstream type hype over the 'sport' and that will equal more 'punter' turning into 'own gunners.

The single thing that puts off everyone i know is the price, they are amazed when i say the price of paint for 'own gunners' and most of them start to think about getting their own stuff.

Surely having thousands in the sport, would help it a lot better than having hundreds of players ??

 

[Biscuit]

basktm ,what you forget mate is that it is the rental guys that are subsidising the days play of the average walkon players day
everybody always forgets about the sites overheads
things like wages average marshalls wage £50 per day
site rental as most don,t own land average £1000 per month
laundry average £1 per suit etc etc etc
all adds up the list is endless so think about it,it,s not all cash in the bank

 

[stongle]

Exile, the points you make are valid ones ... that is of course, if you work upon the premise we have a responsible roster of site owners .. we do not.

We have a few site owners who do a great job .. we have others who do not ... but it is my experience the majority aren't capable of seeing much past their back-pocket.

There is no moral standing we can appeal to when addressing these site owners; for the most part they only understand pound notes .. the majority aren't businessmen at all, though ironically, they are in business.
They also lack the imagination necessary along with the inability to think outside their bank account which of course all goes to ensure things stay pretty much the same ...

I can only approximate a general answer to all this and it's the following:-
whatever we do, it has to start small and grow organically; that is, we need to begin this revolution with a holistic approach to our sport [in terms of understanding the job in hand and developing a program] but at the same time trying to create the component parts as we go along.

There are candidates for this with things like academies and clubs etc but these have to be run hand in hand with site owners and so we not only need the political will to impose academies, we also need to generate a list of site owners who will jump on board.
To do that, we need to make it financially viable and attractive for those site owners otherwise it's a 'no go'.

Once we have a few of these academies established, we need to make sure we support them [top down] with our events .. and that means, somehow dovetailing the academy teams with conventional team event structures .. at the beginning, there won't be enough academy teams to substantiate their own events but eventually there will come a time when they can .. at that point, the critical mass isn't far off because once critical mass is reached, the job's done .. it all takes care of itself after that but like a lot of things, we need to get it there.

And so, we need a practical blueprint, the political will to authorise it, the industry [Fed] to support it, a few site owners to embrace it, the UKPSF to provide an adminstrative backbone, promoters to integrate it in thier events and most importantly, the players to buy into it ...

This is of course a general answer and not too specific, and of course it includes elements of other people's suggestions .. but if we really are to get anywhere, we do need to lay it out at some point ..

The first thing that becomes apparent is just how fragmented we are and it's obvious that's where our biggest problem lays ... well, that and the fact every single one of those requirements just mentioned hasn't succeeded in being intergated with any other in the past ..

But the site owners have to eat. I think there is a slight tendency here to suggest that the majority of site owners are creaming it with an inferior product. Sure there are some that do, but the sites that attract the highest customer returns and offer a quality product do not operate in this fashion. There are cowboys in every profession (certainly plenty around here), but you can't marginalise the very people you need to instigate the change you require. UK Paintball renaissance will begin at a site level, as these are the people whom have the infrastructure to put on the academies (a sup air set-up in a rented field is not sustainable).

Until it is financially viable to do so, there can be no sustainable or real change. This requires hobbyist and tournament players to pay more, simples. The one constant you are unable to change (and shame on you for not mentioning it) is the ridiculous entitlement felt by Paintballers in the UK and that entitlement is fed by access to cheap bullets. The Fed needs to legislate here, otherwise people will always look to play for the cheapest possible and there are retailers whom do sell Paintballs at, close to or below trade (it's human nature, init). You only have to look at responses in this thread to see how far the player base is detached from reality and unable to view UK Paintball holistically. Just because you spoke to a few punters does not entitle you to discounted bullets, well certainly not to 35quid a box.

The argument for sustainable Paint prices that support the site, retail and tournament customer bases has raged since 2001/2 and predates X Ball (certainly I remember having the debate re sustainability of X Ball as a non-Pro format in MLB back when Nexus and other of us with favourable real sponsorship played it). My "gut" feel of the price level required to support the growth plan you indicate (and I do agree this is the way forward), is around the £50-60 a box for Rec and tournament players alike (short of making tournaments single brand, event paint only - pulls plug sits back and awaits bitching). There has to be revenue in supporting the academies as it requires a huge investment of time and effort. Unless of course we stumble upon some benevolent Oligarchs along the way.

 

[Robbo]

Hey Glenn, I'm not unaware people have to make money, businesses have to make profits, it's what makes the world go around; I haven't said the majority of site owners are creaming it .. I do however suggest the majority aren't businessmen or indeed possess the sense to appreciate alternate models of operation especially when it comes to promoting tourney ball.

And as for marginalising them?
I'm not, I don't have to, they marginalise themselves by operating within an industry they seem unable to make the most of ...
As for my 'shameful' omission of ballers expecting cheap paintballs, if you care to take a look elsewhere Glenn, that has pretty much been done already and makes any further mention by myself as academic mate.

But I do agree it's a much needed area for change or rather education but is only around because the industry allow it to be .. after all, players can want what they like but this problem only arises when someone sells them at a reduced price.

Player's expectations are always gonna be academic for as long as nobody sells them cheap balls .. and so it's not so much the players fault as you infer, it's the frickin industry for selling their soul for a few pence .. players will ALWAYS want cheaper prices but that's only half the story ... to complete this woeful tale .. we need the industry's contrition.

I do agree however on your pricing for a box of paint ..seems about right to me ... up until some idiot decides he wants to up his sales numbers for the month

 

[stongle]

As for my 'shameful' omission of ballers expecting cheap paintballs, if you care to take a look elsewhere Glenn, that has pretty much been done already and makes any further mention by myself as academic mate.

I missed the smilie! Apologies, it did read kinda trite. I just try to the hammer pouint home, and was meant for others consumption (if you get what I mean). As I think we kinda agree, and certainly did on the X Ball cost dynamic back in the day.

One thing I will add, to people whom state customers need to shoot 2000+ balls a day is this. Surely that's a sympton of bad field design and sites encouraging people to shoot more than they need. Sure getting on the trigger is part of the enjoyment, but they don't need to shoot that much in a day, to have a good day. I'm sure Pete didn't carry 2000 rounds for his Bren gun when he jumped into Normandy on D Day (well he might of with those "guns"). People whom think customers need to shoot this much equate their own experience with that of site customers, the two are not the same and missing the point. Trigger time is not the customers only enjoyment factors and sites have to offer this as part of the entertainment experience which inturn improves the conversion factor.

 

[Thib]

A bit out of the subject, but if you want contacts in the french federation, i know the vice-president really well.