Amateur A & Amateur B

[raehl]

Originally posted by TNG
raehl, first off I don't ever recall implying in any way that the prizes should be handed out equally. I'm not in favor of a communist paintball series. The point I was trying to make is that promoters want teams to show up to their events. The more teams for them the better off they are, I think we can agree on that. However if said promoter stopped handing out prizes for the lowest level, soon it would be to their detrement because they would begin to lose paying customers.

The problem here is that you're wrong. Taking away prizes from the lowest division will have NO AFFECT on attendence. People who were playing for prizes can pay the same entry, entery the next highest division, play LESS teams, and have a shot at prizes.

People who would rather play newbie teams than have prizes will play in the lowest division and not have prizes. They wern't winning any prizes anyway, so they don't care.

like I said before, there is no full-proof way to prevent sandbagging. But eliminating all prizes at the lowest level would only hurt paintball's growth by not giving any teams at the lowest spectrum any incentive other then the chance to parade around as the am. z champs, lucky them.

They don't deserve anything other than the chance to parade around. Why do you think that sucking enough to play in the lowest division is a reason to get prizes?

[qupte]Oh, and why did you say that I made no sense, is it because it made no sense to you? And I guess that's also why I was wrong not once, but twice right, because I didn't agree with what you had to say?[/quote]

No, I said that because you made no sense. You were attempting to argue that a system didn't work because it accomplished exactly what it was supposed to - saying that the system for getting people to advance divisions was flawed because it would get people to advance divisions.

Chris, before you start trying to make decisions with the player in mind, try becoming a player. Instead of playing "college" paintball or organizing it or whatever it is you may do, sac up and play in a "real" series and then talk to me about tournament paintball and what's best for the players.

I do play. I'd be willing to bet I'm a LOT more in touch with the players than you are. You seem to think that all players play for the prizes, and that's not true. It *CAN'T* be true, because 80-90% of the teams don't win prizes. Take NPPL/PSP for example: 80+ teams in the Novice division, 8 teams win prizes - that means 90% of the teams win nothing, yet they STILL go to the event. Even if you assume half of them thought they'd win something, that still leaves you with 40 teams who paid their entry fee to play even though they had *NO* reasonable expectation of winning anything.

So that means that when you say teams won't play unless there are prizes, you are WRONG. Period.


Some people play touraments because they *LIKE* playing. It's fun, and prizes or no prizes, they'll continue to do it - in fact, many teams would be quite willing to have no shot at prizes (considering they already have no shot, no matter what the top teams in their division win) if it meant they got to play against nicer teams of a similar skill level also not obsessed with winning prizes.


- Chris

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by raehl
The problem here is that you're wrong. Taking away prizes from the lowest division will have NO AFFECT on attendence.

So you're saying that if PSP skipped all prizes in rookie and novice and Super 7 gave event and series prizes to rookie and novice teams it wouldn't impact which series alot of teams choose to play?

 

[raehl]

Well...

I dunno about Novice, but definitely not rookie.

I'd bet that those teams would play whichever events were closest, pretty much regardless of prize package.


Most newbie teams don't really have an expectation of winning the prizes to begin with - it comes down to distance, paint costs,entry costs, size of teams (I'd think 7 vs. 10 would be a much bigger deciding factor than prize package size...)


Honestly, if one league have away $20k for rookie and the other gave away nothing, you'd probably have better longer term success in the Rookie division in the league that DIDN'T give away the money, as they'd have a more friendly rookie division.


My girlfriend doesn't think package size matters either.


- Chris

 

[Kevin]

I play to win basically. I dont enter a tournament to lose, and if I cant win I want to beat big name teams.
I basically want people to say 'ohhh what team is that' and 'that was a good move'. so by playing to my ability and playing good teams are going to get me that, so that means playing a higher division. I think thats why all people play the strut factor.

 

[Recoil]

Looks like its just me that thinks Novices should get some sort of prize then... as I stated I dont think equal prizes, I dont think cash and maybe not even products but a refund of entry fee and some paint to cover the cost of the tournament should be the minimum a novice team can expect for winning a tournament.

Why do you think that sucking enough to play in the lowest division is a reason to get prizes?

What a nice sentiment that is.... I used to read some of your opinions on here and agree with some of your well put arguments, now it appears you have your over sized ego inflated head so far up your own ass your about to disappear of the face of the planet....

If anyone complains about only winning trophies and kudo's in the novice division they should STFU and play at a higher level my humble opinion.

Once again nice sentiment.... people play to the best of thier ability and not everyone is gonna be a LaSoya or a Rocky....

There will always be divisions BUT control of those divisions and who plays in them is the key to stop sandbagging, not the award or none-award of prizes. Worst case scenario is that novices decide to stop playing, there will be no moves up the ladder, there will be no more entry fees to subsidise those pro and am prizes... as I said worst case scenario... but you never know do you......

 

[Baca Loco]

Well...

Originally posted by raehl
1--I dunno about Novice, but definitely not rookie.

2--I'd bet that those teams would play whichever events were closest, pretty much regardless of prize package.

3--Most newbie teams don't really have an expectation of winning the prizes to begin with - it comes down to distance, paint costs,entry costs, size of teams (I'd think 7 vs. 10 would be a much bigger deciding factor than prize package size...)

4-Honestly, if one league have away $20k for rookie and the other gave away nothing, you'd probably have better longer term success in the Rookie division in the league that DIDN'T give away the money, as they'd have a more friendly rookie division.

5--My girlfriend doesn't think package size matters either.

- Chris

1--What?! Did you say you didn't know? Time to start storing the canned veggies and bottled water.
2--Well, let's see. Super 7 near LA. PSP near LA. Super 7 in Vegas. PSP in Vegas. Are you seeing a pattern?
3--you are under a huge misapprehension if you really believe there are ANY Rookie or Novice teams in the dictionary definition of those terms playing the national circuit events.
4--So I guess we can infer where you will be playing then.
5--true confessions?

 

[raehl]

Re: Well...

Originally posted by Baca Loco
1--What?! Did you say you didn't know? Time to start storing the canned veggies and bottled water.

Well, I think for the lower half of Nov teams, it wouldn't make much of a difference, but when you get to the PSP/S7 level, your upper Nov teams are definitely there for prizes. Of course, I also think that if you cut prizes those Nov teams would move up, however, when you've got TWO leagues, cutting Nov prizes in only one league might simply get them to move over - or move over in one league and up in the other (which shouldn't be possible, actually, next year.)

Even then, lets say you hd $20k for the novice division you could either give away as prizes or by knocking down entry fee. You can only appeal to the top Nov teams with prizes, but you can appeal to everyone with lower entry fee. You're better off dropping each team's entry $200-$400 than upping your prize package $20k.

2--Well, let's see. Super 7 near LA. PSP near LA. Super 7 in Vegas. PSP in Vegas. Are you seeing a pattern?

Yes, and I expect that teams who can field 7-man AND 10-man teams, but don't want to do a whole circuit, won't choose to play one series or the other, but will instead choose to play both events that are near them.

3--you are under a huge misapprehension if you really believe there are ANY Rookie or Novice teams in the dictionary definition of those terms playing the national circuit events.

No I'm not - I mean it EXACTLY in the dictionary sense. Now, if you meant in the PAINTBALL sense, where rookie means less than one year of paintball, then no. But in the DICTIONARY sense, Rookie means first season in the league. I guarantee there are no Rookies in Pro anysport, or minorleague anysport for that matter, who have been playing the sport competitively for less than 12 months.

At the S7/PSP level, Rookie means first season in that league. Only in paintball does Rookie generally mean < 12 months. Most other places call that Little League.

4--So I guess we can infer where you will be playing then.

My teams current plans are both chicago events and a FL event as far as S7/PSP goes. This assumes we can find 2 more players for a 10-man team. As for which FL event, I have no idea, and I doubt that decision will be made until August or so. We might do both depending on resources when that time of the year rolls around.

5--true confessions?

Self-depricating humor.


- Chris

 

[BaddahBoom]

After reading this whole thread and skipping some lines
i can't help but feeling that the discussion should be on how to stop teams from entering a division below their PAR division

So for instance if there is some event where a
new team is going to play in
and want to play in the rookie divison
but they do have 4 players in their team who came from a higher divison for instance amateur B
wouldn't it be more fair to the whole Rookie division if that team only could compete at amateur B level ??
( i chose 4 since it is more then 50% of 7 mans team)

The same goes with a team with 4 amateur A level players
who want to play in a B Amateur division.
Let them play level Am A only

Maybe this is one of the ways to stop the possible sandbagging

and as far as prices for the real rookieteams go
i guess most of the rookie/novice teams have to scrape all money together just to play in a millenium event or two
so some partial entry fee refund or voucher for an upcoming evnet would still be nice


i have no clue as to how the player regsitration works
but
maybe showing some genuine ID as to who u really are might help
so u can't play under different names
it surely costs more to make a fake id
than only having to pay 35 euro for a new players card and start wreaking havoc in the rookie division again & again & again


and yes i'am a rookie with no millenium event under my belt atm and i might not even know what the hell i'm talking about
but i'm working on that
planning to attend at least 2 events this year


grtz

BB



rookie = novice = rookie what's in a name

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by BaddahBoom


So for instance if there is some event where a
new team is going to play in
and want to play in the rookie divison
but they do have 4 players in their team who came from a higher divison for instance amateur B
wouldn't it be more fair to the whole Rookie division if that team only could compete at amateur B level ??
( i chose 4 since it is more then 50% of 7 mans team)

There is already such a system in place (well, theoretically anyway).

 

[BaddahBoom]

(well, theoretically anyway)

well that was kinda what i was wondering about J

to me it seems the theoratically part of it
is kind of the first sandbag