Am A vs Am B in the MS?

[Mark]

Robbo, whilst I agree that things do change over time (opinions in this case) when did this U turn over the Pro's v Pro's happen, many of your articles in print and by a small leap of imagination online have always said that to learn you have to play the higher level, now you seem to be advocating that to play the higher level you as a team would have to declare Pro status. The Pro v Pro and Am A v Am a etc I have said needed to be done some time back and as usual the FA cup was used as an example (not by yourself that time btw) to put down the suggestion of equality where it does happens that a normally low ranked team do indeed get to play Man. Utd. Not flaming, just curious as to what has brought you to this realization that a lot of people have been asking for in a tournament schedule for some time?
The current system does throw up the odd strange result but in general the team facing the Pro team is only target practise for the them and with a few exceptions the attitude of those Pro teams to the lesser teams is not a good one.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by rancid
16 am teams beat pro teams at Toulouse. For those teams, it was the best game of the year, and certainly not a waste of time.

I think, without checking back, I'm the only person putting up an argument - oh no, I think Tukisilva posted summat and got savaged. And that's a big worry. The last time I posted about arguably anti pro stuff, I got told to fk off back to the woods. So, do these figures represent all the Mill players, or do they represent a certain number who follow the flow, and gang together.

The great divide in this discussion isn't over whether the little guy gets a shot at the big time, if only briefly and with unrealistic expectations. The divide is whether PB is gonna be a hobby or a sport.
The question is, Is PB sufficiently developed that the competing teams are there to win or to participate? If the majority of teams are there to compete then they don't give a rat's a*s about anything that happens in some other division or the illusion of mixing it up with the "Pros." But it's a fair question to ask.
If your team is there to party, share some space with the PB celebrity types and come home and tell the lads stories of your adventures--then it's a hobby. If your team is there to learn, grow, and above all, win--then you're closing in on sport.
I agree it's fun for the hobbyist to share the same field with some of the world's best players but is that the goal? Should that be the goal?
Personally, I don't think so.

As things stand now, anyone can be a "Pro." Just sign up for that division and pay your fee. Fine for a hobby--absurd for a sport. As PB continues to evolve some things will be lost when others are gained. Good, bad or indifferent that's just the way it is.

 

[Red_Merkin]

Rancid,
I'm glad you read everything, you make some really good points about this subject.

I wasn't aware that there were 16 teams at Toullouse that beat pros, but i'm not suprised. There's a lot of Am B teams that could beat bottom seeded pro teams if they get lucky (not to take anything away from it, but if an am b team beats a pro, the pros probably didn't give their best game, and the Ams have to play out of their skins). But the other 45 or so Am B teams that were there probably thought that was the worst game of the day.

The opposite is true, when we play novices, sometimes we just kill them, but sometimes they just sit on us, and neither team attacks. It sucks when that happens, I'd rather play a team that really wants to have a go at us.

I think after all the things that were mentioned this weekend, play within ones division only will probably happen next year. I doubt that teams will stop playing milleniums because of it, but i'm sure that most players will be happy about it.

I love playing Milleniums for a lot of reasons, good competition, good venues, good marshalling, foregin countries and all that, but i just hate getting rolled over by pro teams like Tontons, and Dynasty. I can think of better way to spend my time and money than being target practice for Super Pro teams.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Mark
Robbo, whilst I agree that things do change over time (opinions in this case) when did this U turn over the Pro's v Pro's happen, many of your articles in print and by a small leap of imagination online have always said that to learn you have to play the higher level, now you seem to be advocating that to play the higher level you as a team would have to declare Pro status. The Pro v Pro and Am A v Am a etc I have said needed to be done some time back and as usual the FA cup was used as an example (not by yourself that time btw) to put down the suggestion of equality where it does happens that a normally low ranked team do indeed get to play Man. Utd. Not flaming, just curious as to what has brought you to this realization that a lot of people have been asking for in a tournament schedule for some time?
The current system does throw up the odd strange result but in general the team facing the Pro team is only target practise for the them and with a few exceptions the attitude of those Pro teams to the lesser teams is not a good one.

It's not a 'U' turn as far as I know Mark, I stand by the idea that playing against better teams enables you to learn, I would be a fool to deny that.
But this principle has to play second fiddle to the greater good and Baca has in part, answered that.
But there is more than one way to get better Mark, you can train the right way, put the time in, do it right and things will improve.

I certainly don't think my advocacy of having to 'turn' pro to 'play' pro is a bad thing, I think it it was inevitable considering the way our sport is developing now.

The sole responsibilty for the improvemnt of ams and novices can't be laid at the feet of the pros but I do get your point.

 

[Red_Merkin]

there's enough pro teams in the UK that are willing to train agains 'serious' am b and am a teams, to fill the gap. Training against lower players can be benificial for pros in small doses, but eventually you'll need to train against stiff competition.

Playing one game an event against a pro team isn't going to help a lower team that much. You learn through repetition, you make mistakes then correct them. Playing one match won't teach you anything, but playing several practice matches over the course of an afternoon will make a huge difference.

 

[tukisilva]

"I think, without checking back, I'm the only person putting up an argument - oh no, I think Tukisilva posted summat and got savaged."

Im still here, still reading and the only possible conclusion is that WE (the small fish) must pay fortunes to play with most of the same guys WE are use to play back home, so that the Pros can have better conditions.

They required the best Marshalls and fields for their games, well, so do I !

Its more interesting to watch a Pro vs Pro game then Effect vs me.
That’s absolutely correct, but 90% of this observers (public) are the small players that dream on having the chance to play those 55 seconds against some super Pro Team.

The Series can survive without the Pro Teams, but never without the Novs and Ams.

The problem its that WE don’t have the b*lls to stand up and say whats on our mind, in some elitist but crucial Topics. Just let it go with the flow…

And for those trying to spread the idea that playing against lower Teams it’s a terrible thing for them to do, must I remember them the insanity of Chicago where one point made the difference ? So this easy MAX points are gold for them, and not a boring spend of balls.

cheers

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by tukisilva
1--"I think, without checking back, I'm the only person putting up an argument - oh no, I think Tukisilva posted summat and got savaged."

2--Im still here, still reading and the only possible conclusion is that WE (the small fish) must pay fortunes to play with most of the same guys WE are use to play back home, so that the Pros can have better conditions.

3--They required the best Marshalls and fields for their games, well, so do I !

4--Its more interesting to watch a Pro vs Pro game then Effect vs me.
That’s absolutely correct, but 90% of this observers (public) are the small players that dream on having the chance to play those 55 seconds against some super Pro Team.

5--The Series can survive without the Pro Teams, but never without the Novs and Ams.

6--The problem its that WE don’t have the b*lls to stand up and say whats on our mind, in some elitist but crucial Topics. Just let it go with the flow…

1--Savaged, was he? Naw. Just a friendly disagreement.
2--well, that's just silly. The lack of one Pro game automatically means you end up playing "all" the teams you normally play against? When the division has 50 teams from all over Europe?
3--this I agree with--and it's one reason all the teams and players should support the EPA and do everything in their power to make the reffing as good as possible for everyone.
4--Some view that as part of the problem, not a reason to keep doing the same things.
5--you're arguing both sides now. You demand your one Pro game otherwise it ain't worth playing but you're also saying the Series is still good to go without the Pros. Gotta be one or the other. Either the Novs and Ams will keep coming without a Pro game or they won't.
6--as the Novs and Am B's represent the most money you will be listened to--if enough of them feel like you do.

 

[Robbo]

by tukisilva


Im still here, still reading and the only possible conclusion is that WE (the small fish) must pay fortunes to play with most of the same guys WE are use to play back home, so that the Pros can have better conditions.
They required the best Marshalls and fields for their games, well, so do I !


You play who you play not because the pros demand that you do, it's because you are at the level you play at..end of.
U wanna play the pros, then train, train hard and then turn pro, it's the way of the world, live with it !!
Paintball ain't and never will be immune from these influences.
And how the hell do we get better conditions that u don't benefit from ?

by tukisilva
Its more interesting to watch a Pro vs Pro game then Effect vs me.
That’s absolutely correct, but 90% of observers (public) are the small players that dream on having the chance to play those 55 seconds against some super Pro Team.
The Series can survive without the Pro Teams, but never without the Novs and Ams.
The problem its that WE don’t have the b*lls to stand up and say whats on our mind, in some elitist but crucial Topics. Just let it go with the flow…

I can't believe that am teams invest so much interest in playing pros, they only get to play one for God's sake and that omission ain't gonna make them lose any sleep.
Players and teams go to be part of a great event, if am teams get to play a pro, cool, but it sure ain't as inportant as you try to make out.
Pro players will always be more 'listened to', once again, its the way of the world, if Zidane wants to speak out on what's wrong with football, people listen, if Fred Applethwhaite from Skelmersdale does the self same thing........u get my point !

by tukisilva
And for those trying to spread the idea that playing against lower Teams it’s a terrible thing for them to do, must I remember them the insanity of Chicago where one point made the difference ? So this easy MAX points are gold for them, and not a boring spend of balls.
cheers

And as for the Chicago one point fiasco, this was caused by chicanery and incompetence, but if you are referring to the easy acquistion of max points being like gold, if its the same for all pro teams i.e. we all play one am teams (which we do) then I'm afraid it is academic.
This golden opportunity, as u like to put it, just cancels itself out across the board

 

[rancid]

It's good this init.

Fkin Brockdorff'll be along in a minute to stick the boot in.

 

[tukisilva]

BACA LOCO
2--well, that's just silly. The lack of one Pro game automatically means you end up playing "all" the teams you normally play against? When the division has 50 teams from all over Europe?

-> Not sure, but I think last time I played it was against 3 Portuguese teams, 3 Spanish teams (neighbours), and only 3 really foreign teams. So…
And please, don’t tell me (in a friendly way) that I should go out more, unless you have a sponsor for us.

5--you're arguing both sides now

-> Don’t go that way. I never said “is still good to go without”, I said “can survive without”. It’s a completely different thing, but anyway nice try.
6--as the Novs and Am B's represent the most money you will be listened to--if enough of them feel like you do.
-> We both now that aint gonna happen.

ROBBO
"And how the hell do we get better conditions that u don't benefit from ?"

-> If people complains about marshalling every single tournament (except for those marshalled by Joy) imagine how it would be for us (small fish) if you get all the best Marshals for your games ? Hilarious.
The only benefit I cant think of its technological, but you receive it for free and I have to pay for it.

"but it sure ain't as inportant as you try to make out"

-> Ok, its not the most important thing of the weekend, but sure its very important.
Im nobody, an old baller, and still can remember every single game I was massacred by Joy, BL, Shockwave, Bad Company, Tonton and even Banzai. And its with a smile that I hear the kids talking about their game against Strange, Avalanche, or Dynasty. The motivation, the dreams, the hopes… Yap, its not the most important thing in the world but sure its very important to keep on calling new people and making them bigger in this sport.

"This golden opportunity, as u like to put it, just cancels itself out across the board"

-> So you aint gonna lose anything, but we (small teams) are gonna win a lot, if you belive we like being spanked

RANCID
"Fkin Brockdorff'll be along in a minute to stick the boot in."

-> And you ask for respect ?...

CHEERS