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A Word / Poem On Ramping

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
Heaving through this Home Office document (Not because I'm bored or have too much time on my hands you understand, this is merely to assist my fellow ballers in not falling foul of the law) it seems that the Air Weapon falls in and out of legislation.

Just found a piece that Ben might be interested in, after asking "how can I be done, etc, etc"

If you carry a firearm (even an air gun, earlier stated to be not considered a firearm :confused: ) in a public place, which is loaded (a ball in the breech is considered loaded) you are commiting an offence even if the compression necessary to
fire the gun is not present;


(Edit after reading further : Also applies if your breach is clear, but you have a loaded hopper attached)

So that's how ;)

(Ok, I admit it i'm bored and this does kinda make interesting reading, specially when you get onto the subject of air-to-air missiles launched from a rail...i'm wondering if I could fit one without a drop-forward)
 
P

Paintball Paladin

Guest
Originally posted by Flash-Bugout
Good point, well made, but (and this is just IMHO) there is a difference between a bad investment/business choice, and doing something to destroy your customer base. See Bill Hicks comments on the Judas Priest court case for what I mean ;)
dont disagree with what you say the two are different but the fundamental point here is that people aren't gonna do anything with their own money that would result in a loss of capital.

Business's fold all the time because the md's (who have money invested in companies they run) with good intentions at helping their business grow make bad decisions and mistakes. It is this point I was trying to make (just didn't put it too well :rolleyes: )

that can happen anywhere in life.

IMHO also by the way

much peace and love:cool:
 

Collier

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Jan 2, 2002
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Originally posted by mad dog
Just to point Out A certain person got my back up yes and for this I opologise, I have opened up a whole can of worms have I not, but no opinion is a dead opinion.

It comes down to this, because of the grey we are left always wondering.

We live in a world of the unknown where at any time something stupid could go wrong and , whoops there goes paintball.

I work within a site and understand it all to well, but I will say this, would you allow a group of paying customers to use fully ramping markers because we have no law on it, and if not why not, think about it.......

I have no problem with a ramping marker apart from I wanted to see the approval letter and thats how all this got started, you can now say all the players with slow fingers just learnt to fire more paint, some team managers will like that because at last they will put paint down and help win games.

But the skill has gone now, the capping makes complete sense auto or not, things where getting silly with rates of fire. dam without ramping my marker rips, but put that down to using three fingers, although i feel like using two to a few people out there.

The dangers come from like I said, try before you apply it.

I have no advantage from saying all this, I would find myself outfiring the marker and using all my paint in a frenzy of standing up in the middle and just lighting the whole field up.

The point is at some point we must get rif of the grey once and for all.

But this will take guys like mentioned before and they will have to have everyanswer under the sun to bypass stupid questions asked them, then we can sit back and say we are a sport. GEt it reconised sport
Mark how do we 'get rid of the grey areas?' the only way I know we really wouldn't want to go through!
Keep hearing talk about skill being gone now, that too me is BS. wow you can fire your gun quick and it's without any bounce what-so-ever, how do you know it has no bounce? because when you pull the trigger slowly it doesn't fire more than 1 shot? sorry but theres no way you can be 100% sure you're not getting any additional help.
So lets say they were to cap rof instead, whats to stop the teams using hidden ramping boards?? and so we go full circle!
Am tired and bored of the same things being discussed over and over and over again :(

Also think its laughable that someone is suggesting the PA is somehow in cahoots with paint manufacturers regarding this rule change...
 

mad dog

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Jan 18, 2002
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Originally posted by Collier
Mark how do we 'get rid of the grey areas?' the only way I know we really wouldn't want to go through!
Keep hearing talk about skill being gone now, that too me is BS. wow you can fire your gun quick and it's without any bounce what-so-ever, how do you know it has no bounce? because when you pull the trigger slowly it doesn't fire more than 1 shot? sorry but theres no way you can be 100% sure you're not getting any additional help.
So lets say they were to cap rof instead, whats to stop the teams using hidden ramping boards?? and so we go full circle!
Am tired and bored of the same things being discussed over and over and over again :(

Also think its laughable that someone is suggesting the PA is somehow in cahoots with paint manufacturers regarding this rule change...
No business to your comments is business and everyone wants to make money, I never mentioned anything about paint deals and the PA and to be quiet honest that non of my concern and not bothered, that was someones comments not mine ok.

No your right in one way, but dont you think we should think about it and get the right paople to sort it once and for all or do we start taking this sport as we call it and let it bang in everyones face , including the sites.

In all the years I have been dealing with firearms and paintball, and understand the workings very well thank you its just gone really silly.

Ok there are ways to find a cheating board, or even just produce a capped board, funny how angel could do this, but then again if we dont allow ramp how would the other marker maufacturers keep up because every dam thing out there in marker / gun design has a patent stamp on it.

SO develop a capping device that the marker has been checked out by an official for competitions and cant be tampered with.. oh hang on that may be to difficult for some peaple.
 

mad dog

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Jan 18, 2002
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Maybe its an obsession, maybe its because I would like to see all the negatives ruled out before any mistakes are made but which ever way we look at it look what I found.....

As of February 8th, 2005 the PSP has changed the rules regarding how a marker can fire. The PSP has instituted a 15bps cap, and now allows "ramping".

We know that ramping is unsafe. In fact, our insurance carrier will not cover this type of shooting mode.

We have been in contact with the PSP since last year, asking to be

updated on any rules changes concerning markers. With more than 30,000 Equalizer boards being used by players, the number of players using our products in PSP, NPPL, XPSL, CFOA, and other sanctioned events is considerable.

On December 14th, 2004 we received this response when asked about the rumors of ramping being allowed in the PSP:

"I had never thought, or even contemplated, having it be legal to ramp, bounce excessively, or turbo anything. I would never allow that to be part of the capping of the rate of fire rule, or whatever I/we decide to do." - Robert Rose, PSP

Up until the evening of February 2nd, 2005 we had been led to believe that a 15bps cap might be instituted without any type of ramping.

We stated a concern that ramping is unsafe. The PSP stated that they needed to end cheating and believes that "they [players] can average at least 15 - 20 balls a second. And that is just what most of them average." This is simply not the case. As proven by the NPPL's ballistics chrono, tournament paintball players shoot an average of 9-11 bps. There are only a handful of players that can actually sustain 15+ bps for any length of time. If the PSP believes that by having markers all shooting at a 15 bps pace they can determine if one of them is shooting 20 bps in bursts, they are fooling themselves. It has already been proven on the field that the PACT timers can not be used during game play because they measure sound, and the background noise (of other markers) false triggers them. There simply is no way to enforce any type of rate of fire rule, or determine if the ramping rule is even being adhered to. This opens the door to cheat modes far more extreme that anything previously used. No longer will a cheater have to be careful about their marker "going off". Nobody will even think twice about it.

We presented the PSP with several ideas to allow the elimination of the ramping, and they fell on deaf ears. In the end, it has become very ugly, with the PSP now refusing to provide us (or anyone else who as asked thus far) contact information for PSP's insurance company. Our insurance company would like to talk with the PSP's insurance to see if they understand the ramifications of the change in rules.

It boils down to this... if you can pull the trigger at a 5 bps or faster pace, your marker will be shooting full auto at the capped limit of 15 bps. But, the PSP's rules are conflicting. 15 bps is 66.66667ms between shots. The rules state that there is a penalty assessed if the rate of fire is 65ms or less. So, this means that 65.00001ms is ok, which equates to 15.385613 bps, a far cry from "15 bps".

The ASTM standards for paintball clearly state that a paintball marker must fire in semi-auto mode, have a maximum rate of fire of 15 bps, and have a maximum velocity of 280 fps.

Since nearly nobody legally exceeds 15 bps when shooting, a cap is not going to change the sport. However, the virtual full-auto ramping will. It takes a single shot to the temple to cause unconsciousness. Repeated shots to the temple can induce a coma and/or cause death. Those are the facts. If a mask comes off, the chances of someone being shot multiple times in the face is dramatically increased with a marker that is capable of shooting 15 bps at a sustained pace by anyone.

These rules were officially released on February 8th, 2005. There is not sufficient time for any professional manufacturer to read the rules, write new code, and adequately test the code using real-world and bench testing in time for the first event, which is just a week away.

To make matters worse, the PSP has failed to realize that marker manufacturers such as Bob Long, Smart Parts, Proto, Eclipse, and others who have not licensed WDP's patent for being able to reprogram a board, will be violating WDP's patent if they upgrade markers (either at the events or otherwise). WDP sued Smart Parts and won, setting a legal precedence and making it very easy for WDP to enforce their patent. Smart Parts complied with WDP's patent by making their new boards completely non-reprogrammable. This means that players will have to purchase new boards, which may not even be available from the manufacturer (especially given the short notice).

We will be making new firmware available for the Intimidator and Viking Equalizer boards that basically is the same firmware we have been using for the Impulse, NME, Pimp Kit, etc. for quite some time. This new firmware allows the rate of fire to be set from 10 to 30 bps. However, we will not comply with the ramping rule.

We highly recommend that all players and companies ask the PSP for proof of insurance and contact information for the PSP's insurance company. It is our opinion, after speaking with several of the companies that cover paintball events (all of which will not cover ramping either), that the PSP's insurance company has not been notified of the change in rules.

Some people will be angry at us for our stance, but we believe that ramping can cause permanent injury or death of a player, and it is simply irresponsible to allow this theory to be tested.

We believe that people who cheat should be banned from the sanctioning body's events indefinitely, and the team suspended for the year. If you want to take the chance, then do it. It wouldn't be long before the cheaters were gone or straightened up.

And this comes from a source cant say sorry, but a valid point.....are we covered by insurances on sites will it cover us against our own team policies and do we have to change the premuims.......or put it another way will insurers cover uus if they know the facts.....
 

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
A) Mad Dog, you've omitted exactly *where* this excerpt has come from. It's interesting, but to give it validity, who wrote it?

B)Insurance isn't something that's been queried yet o0n the boards from what i've read (too much on the BPS argument to read all lin one go, so I might be wrong there). Is there anyone from the PA who can confirm that their insurance arrangements cover the ramping modes?