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A Question....

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Is that a drumbeat I hear?

Originally posted by TJ 2
Justin Owen sees the wipe, puts it in his article in PGI and the Editors, after talking to Justin, run with it. Big outcry, but does it change tha result? Nope. Does it do anything more than blot the team's name for a coupla weeks? Nope.

So what do y'all think should be tha magazines' policy?
My objection has been and remains that the mag elevates players without regard to how they play if they have a certain rep or if they have friends among the journalists. While I don't think it's a terribly constructive policy to pick out negative incidents and name names for the reasons TJ mentions and others I think a useful option remains--simply NEVER mention by name any player the editors and staff consider to be a non-clean player.
As it stands now the mag routinely gives it's imprimatur to plenty of "stars" who have questionable standards of play and that's one of the ways this sort of conduct is passed on to the next generation of player. "X is a superstar and I saw him wiping..."
At a minimum it's counterproductive for the mag to give tacit approval (by recognizing) certain unethical players while Robbo is busy leading the RL bandwagon. Can you say mixed message?
Originally posted by Robbo
Their treatment in Portugal was a disgrace when the letter of the law was so rigidly translated with no recourse to common sense and a penalty so harsh, which what everybody agreed (bar a few) was for an unintentional infraction.
Robbo--are you suggesting the rule should be A) changed, or B) the refs given discretion in enforcement?
I can't believe you would advocate either one as A) you yourself have made an issue of the potential for abusing electro markers and B) there isn't a distinction to be made--either a marker is compliant with the rules or it isn't.
Moo
 

Robbo

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Is that a drumbeat I hear?

Originally posted by Baca Loco

My objection has been and remains that the mag elevates players without regard to how they play if they have a certain rep or if they have friends among the journalists. While I don't think it's a terribly constructive policy to pick out negative incidents and name names for the reasons TJ mentions and others I think a useful option remains--simply NEVER mention by name any player the editors and staff consider to be a non-clean player.
As it stands now the mag routinely gives it's imprimatur to plenty of "stars" who have questionable standards of play and that's one of the ways this sort of conduct is passed on to the next generation of player. "X is a superstar and I saw him wiping..."
At a minimum it's counterproductive for the mag to give tacit approval (by recognizing) certain unethical players while Robbo is busy leading the RL bandwagon. Can you say mixed message?

Robbo--are you suggesting the rule should be A) changed, or B) the refs given discretion in enforcement?
I can't believe you would advocate either one as A) you yourself have made an issue of the potential for abusing electro markers and B) there isn't a distinction to be made--either a marker is compliant with the rules or it isn't.
Moo

In life, we come up against many types of people, pragmatists and dogmatists to name but two.
I have always been of the opinion, that without rules, people are prone to anarchy and as such, rules are an undeniable necessity governing the way we live and also how we play.
But there comes a time when the notion of common sense is so often sacrificed cuz some dick says this is the rule and that's it.
But who determines the rule and who determines the dick ?
Hmmmm, and herein lies the rub (no pun intended)
I'll say this much with regard to full auto and a judges present determination thereof.
As Manike explained on another thread, the strict interpretation is any gun that fires more than the number of trigger pulls is deemed to be illegal and as such, full auto.
If you hold your finger down on the trigger and keep it held, and a constant stream of paint pisses out the end of your barrel, this is deemed and I would also agree, to be full auto.
But taking the letter of the law, we can extend this definition to any gun that has the trigger pulled 100 times and 101 balls issue forth, now Manike would argue this can and is, similarly classified as full auto but hey, where's the common sense?
I don't give two ****s what the government says with regard to this matter, we are not talking legality here, we are talking about adjudication at a tournament where a penalty is to be assessed.
There is no way anybody exhibiting such a malfunction should be judged as harshly as someone who is firing full, and I mean full auto !!
It's frikkin ludicrous and so was the penalty suffered by the RL.
We all know the RL never meant for it to happen, we know they never exhibited full-auto characteristics and yet, they lost two players for the rest of the tournament and why ?
Because the Millennium rules committee had written this rule in without any recourse to any players or common sense and I gotta say, they have no real idea what the f##k they are doing.

To lose two players as the Legion did for this offence, well, I can't believe it, it makes me so angry that we could treat paying customers like this when the judges must have known the RL did not intentionally set up their guns to fire full auto.
If someone can prove they did, then yes, slam them into hell, but there was no way they did and this proof could never have been forthcoming.
But what do the Millennium rules committee do?
Instead of trying to fix a rule that is obviously unfair and impractical, they just go ahead and ban the players from the RL, easy ain't it ?
And if you knew some of the other ideas being mooted now with regard to rule changes then you would have a fit too, I spoke to Jean Manuel and he told me some of his thinking, well, all I gotta say is, hmmmm, somebody needs to do something before they get formalised or there is gonna be a frikkin riot !!!!!

As for answering the first part of the question, hmmm, Baca, me and you both well know, this game of ours, including every top American team has cheats (in an absolute sense) riddling thru them.
I have seen every one of them cheat at one time or another and just because they do, do we ignore the great parts of their game ?
Nah, course we don't if we ignored those who do cheat (and r u gonna draw the line?) the pages, of nigh on every mag would just have me and the RL in them and believe me, you don't want that :)

Nah, that was a stupid question as I'm sure you know, it doesn't reveal any contradictory policy from me or the magazine is just shows the pragmatism we adopt when reporting.
Does boxing news ignore Tyson cuz he's an animal ?
Did it stop his licence being issued to fight again in your country ?
Do we ignore Michael Jordan because he used to commit fouls ?
The list goes on and your suggestion gets more ludicrous by the minute….
Nah, cheating is everywhere, it is part of human nature just as much as human excellence of endeavour and play, ignore one and you have to ignore the others.
You would have a sport devoid of character, passion and personality and if you want that Baca, start up a Dominican Monk paintball league and see how just how many buy the magazine that concentrates their coverage on it.
Baca, you are intelligent guy that's for sure, but you knew the answers (or should have done ) to this long before you put finger to keyboard.
Robbo
 
I think it's more subtle than that

Part of tha whole blowout regarding RL was because of tha use of tha word 'cheat'...as I said earlier in another thread: "Did RL cheat? Yes. Are they cheats? Nope.'

Seemingly contradictory I know, but it ain't in tha sense of what we as ballers believe to be cheating.

By tha letter of tha law, everyone who makes a rule infraction cheats - even if it's accidentally crawling outta bounds without realizing it, or going hot thru negligence. In that sense, we have ALL cheated.

We need to start looking at things differently...and Baca Loco is, I think, suggesting that players who are habitual wipers and/or adopt a systematic gun cheat policy, should not be put on a pedestal...those who sometimes play on, maybe go hot once in a while or throw their toys out of their pram at a ref once a season aren't cheats, even though they've cheated.

Boxing may not ignore Tyson, but he ain't held up as role model either - whereas the pball press does laud certain players who have a policy that is ethically unsound to say tha least...

peace
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
I fully agree that the rule should have been better defined in the first place. Given what happened in Germany, changing the rules mid tourney could have been a bit shady, although I'm sure that every one would agree the circumstances here were a whole lot different to the ones when the TonTons got caught. For starters nobody saw the Legion's team captain clamouring for a rule change.
Yes, if the laws concerning the difference between fire arms and paintball markers are as strict as they are explained in some of these posts, the use of full auto markers ought to be against the rules. But I do feel that there needs to be a bigger difference between a 'real' full auto, and an occasional trigger bounce.
Without trigger bounce people can already squeeze out 12-13 balls per second. With the bounce added, it can run up to what, 13-14? Wooh, big difference! That kinda make the whole safety argument obsolete.... Keep the penalties if need be, but make a difference between intentional (kick them off the field), and unintentional (penalty points, or some such).
Alternatively, introduce a maximum rate of fire (didn't that used to be around anyway?) of something like 13/sec. Also keep real full auto and turbo on the 'bad list', but if an occasional trigger bounce gets you that one ball extra every now and then, who cares. All markers will be capped at a maximum rate of fire anyway...
Just the way I feel.

PS It's funny that this is only beginning to surface lately. Back in the days when I used an automag, I had it very finely tuned. With a Benchmark 45 frame, I was able to set the trigger so that when I had the safety on, I could actually fire it, but with a very short trigger pull, of about 1 mm. this improved my rate of fire dramatically. When the safety was off, it could be set up almost like a double action trigger, without actually having one...
 

Collier

Arsed?
Jan 2, 2002
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If a player gets

Originally posted by TJ 2
3-4-1'd for wiping, say, it sometimes does get mentioned in tha magazines...it's when a player cheats and isn't pulled out, but the cheat is seen by tha reporter, that things get a little funky...

Bill Gardner gets away with a wipe and tha AAs win tha World Cup; Justin Owen sees the wipe, puts it in his article in PGI and the Editors, after talking to Justin, run with it. Big outcry, but does it change tha result? Nope. Does it do anything more than blot Billy/the team's name for a coupla weeks? Nope.

What it potentially does do is
A - Land tha magazine in court
B - Cause Smart Parts, Diablo and all tha teams sponsors to sever links with PGI
C - Set a precedent so that every single tiny infraction a reporter claims to see, he'll demand to have in tha mag

And C could get things real ugly when you think about the consequences...

So what do y'all think should be tha magazines' policy?
I am a subscriber to a bike magazine called RiDE, they conduct product tests and reviews and are well known for calling a crap product exactly what it is regardless of sponsors/advertisers etc. now maybe they can afford to do this because deep down the industry respects its testing standards and continue to support the mag in regards to advertising within the mag or more likely the subscriber/sales base is big enough and RiDE know the buyers respect the mag for their honest reviews and will buy it above another mag which will blow smoke up companies bums.
It'd be nice if PGI was in the position to call a cheat a cheat!

Paul.
 
You miss the point...

As I said, PGI does put stuff like 'So and so was 2-4-1d for playing on' etc., the problem lies when a player is seen by a reporter but not by a judge, cos it becomes the reporters word Vs tha players (if the player denies it)...and that's where things get ugly. The other thing I was inmplying was that once you've done that once, then Next time Fast Eddie from Aussie Paintball sends a report in saying that Mark McClure wiped 18 times, we've set a precedent to rpint that sort of info. But what if Fast eddie is mistaken, or has a grudge, or is a liar?

Similarly with pics: we got loads of pics with famous players shooting with obvious hits that, if we printed em, would be highly inflammatory. However, what if the shot of Robbo firing his gun with a hit in the middle of his goggles has a story behind it?

And that story is: Robo did a guy who played on and on shot him in the mask. The judge pulls the other player and calls to Robo to keep playing as he's in a tight situation that he needs to react to before the judge can wipe him down? Picture won't tell you that bit...

See where I'm going with this?

peace
 

Robbo

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I think it's more subtle than that


We need to start looking at things differently...and Baca Loco is, I think, suggesting that players who are habitual wipers and/or adopt a systematic gun cheat policy, should not be put on a pedestal...those who sometimes play on, maybe go hot once in a while or throw their toys out of their pram at a ref once a season aren't cheats, even though they've cheated.

Boxing may not ignore Tyson, but he ain't held up as role model either - whereas the pball press does laud certain players who have a policy that is ethically unsound to say tha least...

peace [/B]



TJ, I'm afraid the subtlety of Baca's post did not elude me hence the constant referencing to 'Who draws the line and where'?
I was fully aware of what he was getting at but to respond in anything other than the way I did, would have opened up a Pandora's Box of ambiguity and marginality which I wasn't prepared to even bother with.
We can all argue the finer points till we are blue in the face but in practical terms it gets us nowhere !!!!
I ain't interested in bull**** subtleties when common sense is such a readily available resource.

As for Tyson, I ain't nor are you holding up any of the 'Stars' as bastions of virtue, nowhere have I ever written, that say, someone like Lasoya is a saint, I say he is a great paintballer and I will say it again.
And I will also say that 99% of tournament paintballers have cheated at least once, I know I have, although I do not now and haven't done for a long. long, time.
But common sense has to act as mediator when considering what we don't write about somebody as against everybody else’s predisposition to cheat in the game.
I say again, who draws the line and where is it drawn ?
Robbo
 

Cenobite

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Apr 18, 2002
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I think a large problem that results from cheating is that intentional cheating breeds more of the same.

I remember guesting with a team (who shall remain nameless) on a one off tourny, I didnt really know them. They had a spare spot and I wasnt playing.

First game comes up, we are doing ok, we are still at 5 men they are down to 2, so of course we push on them hard. As I ran down the tape I come under fire, slide into cover. Look down and see a hit, I hadnt felt it hit. So I just stand up and walk out.

After the game one of the players asks me why I called myself out. I explained I was hit plain and simple. I then received a lengthy talk about not walking until a marshall told me to, and if it was a blatant hit/s I should call a marshall and play until they arrive.

When I suggested it was cheating, he laughed and told me that it was "required to compete", and that everyone does it, at every level.

Suffice to say I didnt change my stance, and still try to play an honest game.

Hey at the end of the day if you have to cheat then you havent really won...