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Reffing: What are you going to do about it?

chrizwheatley

Northern Baller
Sep 23, 2007
798
4
43
Near Newcastle
Personally i dont think there is a problem with reffing, the problem is with ballers attitude.

I was quite lucky when i started as i had the UKRefs judging me. These guys took time and pleasure explaining the rules and helping with any whys and what for questions that anyone may have.

If a ref can justify a call from black and white rules then great but fact is loads of current refs use their own interpretation of rules, not the matter of fact black and white rule book.

I think a very easy way to educate the players is to have a ref question time type thing before an event. Captains meetings are rushed and refs are to busy doing set up that could or should have been done by the set up crew so this does not happen.

An event i reffed regularly tackled such problems. At the start of the day there was a question time before kick off and an introduction to supair for any new players. Granted this time was not used to reach its full potential but at least it was offered. It was also drummed into players that they do not make a song and dance they if they feel they were penalised incorrectly and everyone understood that their team captain approaches the Ultimate to raise a question usually taking out any boyish behaviour.

Following each game myself and the other reffs would answer any question a player had with rules. Several players felt they were victimised and without drawing examples these players soon realised with explanation that they were simply not victimised they were educated (funnily enough these were 99% of the time experienced players), in truth these players games were brought on leaps and bounds making a much better player and no real issues.

I think personally the problem doesnt lie with the refs it lies with players thinking they know better. The only problem i see with refs is people skills which many lack. If you explain why a call was made or help the player understand the bigger picture then 9/10
of the time the player comes away having learned something, if you just shrug it off then you obviously dont understand why you were actually making the call.

The sad fact of it is people are to interested in hosing people with paint then understanding the game of paintball.

Paintball shouldnt be a game between the refs and teams it should be a demonstration of skills with the refs ensuring fairness as apose to having refs demonstrate small man syndrome and throw out unnecessary penaltys.

A training is deffo a great idea Jon and i will look forward to taking part in it but i think something anyone who wants to ref should do is understand the game before they try and judge someone else and it makes the rest much easier.

Lets hope more people get some interest and they self reflect and not just spit the dummy and vent off at refs who dont deserve it :D
 

Missy-Q

300lb of Chocolate Love
Jul 31, 2007
2,524
1,132
198
Harlem, NY
Personally i dont think there is a problem with reffing, the problem is with ballers attitude.

I was quite lucky when i started as i had the UKRefs judging me. These guys took time and pleasure explaining the rules and helping with any whys and what for questions that anyone may have.

If a ref can justify a call from black and white rules then great but fact is loads of current refs use their own interpretation of rules, not the matter of fact black and white rule book.

I think a very easy way to educate the players is to have a ref question time type thing before an event. Captains meetings are rushed and refs are to busy doing set up that could or should have been done by the set up crew so this does not happen.

An event i reffed regularly tackled such problems. At the start of the day there was a question time before kick off and an introduction to supair for any new players. Granted this time was not used to reach its full potential but at least it was offered. It was also drummed into players that they do not make a song and dance they if they feel they were penalised incorrectly and everyone understood that their team captain approaches the Ultimate to raise a question usually taking out any boyish behaviour.

Following each game myself and the other reffs would answer any question a player had with rules. Several players felt they were victimised and without drawing examples these players soon realised with explanation that they were simply not victimised they were educated (funnily enough these were 99% of the time experienced players), in truth these players games were brought on leaps and bounds making a much better player and no real issues.

I think personally the problem doesnt lie with the refs it lies with players thinking they know better. The only problem i see with refs is people skills which many lack. If you explain why a call was made or help the player understand the bigger picture then 9/10
of the time the player comes away having learned something, if you just shrug it off then you obviously dont understand why you were actually making the call.

The sad fact of it is people are to interested in hosing people with paint then understanding the game of paintball.

Paintball shouldnt be a game between the refs and teams it should be a demonstration of skills with the refs ensuring fairness as apose to having refs demonstrate small man syndrome and throw out unnecessary penaltys.

A training is deffo a great idea Jon and i will look forward to taking part in it but i think something anyone who wants to ref should do is understand the game before they try and judge someone else and it makes the rest much easier.

Lets hope more people get some interest and they self reflect and not just spit the dummy and vent off at refs who dont deserve it :D
good post. The best reffing I ever saw was by a guy who did just that. He told the players what he was pulling 1-4-1's for, etc., and carefully explained, in a perfectly reasonable way, that arguing a call would lose them another player. They went onto the field knowing, and had no complaints when they were penalised. It is possible for refs to 'position themselves' far better with the teams they are reffing before the game starts.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
I agree with Missy, Chriz's post was a well though out, intelligent post that identified core problems without any emotional knee jerks that have sometimes been apparent in this thread.
 

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
6,516
1,874
238
Update

A (very) brief outline of a bootcamp style course has been sent to Robbo for review.

It's short and sharp.

His comments are awaited.

:)
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
If we take a time out here and think about why this whole subject of reffing has been bought to the fore ..... at the Fed cup, shockwave behaved appallingly ...
Think that is a bit too general. As far as I was aware was not the issue with Shock 1 and not Shock 2.:confused:
You took the time and trouble to accuse me of generalising which is actually not only unfair but innacurate..... in fact El, you are splitting hairs ... but I have to ask myself, why do you once again take up a contrary position that's not really substantiated?
 

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
6,516
1,874
238
If we take a time out here and think about why this whole subject of reffing has been bought to the fore ..... at the Fed cup, shockwave behaved appallingly ...

You took the time and trouble to accuse me of generalising which is actually not only unfair but innacurate..... in fact El, you are splitting hairs ... but I have to ask myself, why do you once again take up a contrary position that's not really substantiated?
Far be it from me to tell a Mod and the Forum owner what to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.

For me, this thread wasn't driven by what 'Shock did or didn't do at the Fed Cup. I didn't see it, so I can't comment on the incident.

I don't want this thread to focus on "The 'Shock Incident".

This is the way I see it:-

From when I started reffing back in 1991, right up to now, there has always been a lack of respect for refs in the UK.

'Shock were not the first team to behave badly, and they won't be the last.

It's interesting to note that, when I ref in the States, we get massive respect. Similarly, in Malaysia, we were treated like kings.

Oddly enough, the game in the States is streets ahead of the skill level in the UK. So what you have is a paradox - the more skilled players giving you more respect than the lesser skilled players.

The point is, we can't change the mentality of players.

What we can do is train and equip refs properly, and ensure that the right level of ref is attending the right level of event, so that you have sufficiently experienced staff to deal with any situations that may arise.

Experienced refs can also stop "situations" from arising in the first place, if you see what I mean.

Which brings me to my next point - who runs ref clinics on a regular basis?

Answer: nobody, except Lane Wright, on behalf of the PSP.

This is what we need to change - we need a rolling program of regular clinics.

Reffing can be enjoyable, you know. I have had some great times and amazing road trips.

My most memorable moments in reffing, in no particular order:-

1. Dynasty v XSV, WC 2005.

2. Giving Robbo a -50 for lifting his goggles at one of Bully's events back in the day.

3. Hijacking an 18-wheeler on a road trip to Miami.

4. Kuala Lumpur.

5. The PSP taking a chance on us and inviting us to ref for them. And inviting us back.

Priceless.

:)
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Far be it from me to tell a Mod and the Forum owner what to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.
Hmmm, well we shall see if you can live up to your precociousness.


For me, this thread wasn't driven by what 'Shock did or didn't do at the Fed Cup. I didn't see it, so I can't comment on the incident.

I don't want this thread to focus on "The 'Shock Incident".
First off, you would not have originated this thread had the Shock incident not happened.
There was a furor in another thread regarding the behaviour of shockwave which naturally bought into focus the way the judges had adjudicated and you took it upon yourself to mount the white horse and announce to everybody you were gonna start some sort of school ... The shock incident was the reason this thread originated, this is indisputable !
As for you not wanting the thread to focus on the shockwave incident, no problem but unfortunately, threads tend to be organic in direction and will weave this way and that dependant upon those viewing, and consequently commenting upon, this thread.

This is the way I see it:-

From when I started reffing back in 1991, right up to now, there has always been a lack of respect for refs in the UK.
This is profoundly misleading because it implies the lack of respect has been consistent thru that time and it hasn't, it has got worse as the average age has come down and that has been happening in the last 7 or 8 years or so.
This influx of younger player has a rough correspondence with XBall which might go some way in explaining the volatile combination of a high pressure environment with a younger element (and less disciplined).

The 90's obviously did have incidents whereby refs were disrespected but the numbers were in no way significant and in no way comparable to what's going on now ... if you are gonna start stating, what for all intents and purposes, are supposed to be truths, then you really need to get your facts straight Jon.


'Shock were not the first team to behave badly, and they won't be the last.
..erm ....okaaaaayyyyy...


It's interesting to note that, when I ref in the States, we get massive respect. Similarly, in Malaysia, we were treated like kings.
First off, every foreigner in Malaysia is treated like kings, this culture difference has little to do with what you are implying.

And as for you getting 'respected' in the US?
Cool, I'm pleased for you .....


Oddly enough, the game in the States is streets ahead of the skill level in the UK.
Oddly enough????
You are kidding, there is no 'oddly enough' about it, they always have been and always will be, end of !!

So what you have is a paradox - the more skilled players giving you more respect than the lesser skilled players.
Nooooo, you don't have a paradox, you have an anomaly.

The point is, we can't change the mentality of players.
Yes you can, and I cite what happened with the NXL guys changing their mentality when the quality of reffing went up with the advent of a professional reffing squad.
When the NXL professionalised their refs, the way in which they were treated was a sea change from before, just ask any NXL player that knew the before and after.

What we can do is train and equip refs properly, and ensure that the right level of ref is attending the right level of event, so that you have sufficiently experienced staff to deal with any situations that may arise.

Nobody can ever actually achieve this but the trick is, to aim for it.


Experienced refs can also stop "situations" from arising in the first place, if you see what I mean.
Absolutely true.

Which brings me to my next point - who runs ref clinics on a regular basis?
Answer: nobody, except Lane Wright, on behalf of the PSP.
This is what we need to change - we need a rolling program of regular clinics.
Reffing can be enjoyable, you know. I have had some great times and amazing road trips.
Jon ..... come on mate, you been in this sport how long??
Many years I know, but yet you are coming out with some extremely naive ideas here mate.
The Federation was created because we in the industry realised that unless someone did something, the paintball tourney circuit was gonna diminish so significantly as to threaten its foundations.
Our sport in the UK cannot even sustain player clinics on any consistent basis let alone the notion of any reffing clinic; it's absurd to even think about enough guys wishing to ref to sustain a rolling clinic.

The correct idea, or rather chronology of events would be, to get our tournament circuit on its feet and this inevitably generates more players / more interest and therefore, eventually, more guys willing to ref.

It would be the latter demographic you would need to harvest for clinics but as of yet, we just don't have the numbers for any more than about, one clinic south, and one north.
I have zero problem with the idea of a seminar for refs running in the background of the Fed's events but as I said before, we would not be sanctioning anything outside of our responsibility.
The Fed would need to evaluate and then sanction any reffing program, this is the way it would have to be if anybody is looking for Fed status; it would be entirely irresponsible of us to adopt any other position on this.

My most memorable moments in reffing, in no particular order:-

1. Dynasty v XSV, WC 2005.

2. Giving Robbo a -50 for lifting his goggles at one of Bully's events back in the day.
:rolleyes: Glad I could be of service to you, I remember that incident and thinking to myself .... ' xxxx x xxxx'.

3. Hijacking an 18-wheeler on a road trip to Miami.

4. Kuala Lumpur.

5. The PSP taking a chance on us and inviting us to ref for them. And inviting us back.

Priceless.

:)
 

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
6,516
1,874
238
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Pete.

I always appreciate your views, and I mean that 100%.

That said, before I reply to your responses, are you sure that you don't want to amend any of them?

Remember, the "search all posts" facility on here is a handy thing.

:)