50 Caliber Revolution

[musefrog]

Hrm... surely, if it turns out these new .50 cal balls perform as badly as you're saying, Chicago, they'll fail? Once players start trying them out and find out they suck, the word will go out, and people won't buy them.

So why stress out about it, posting repeatedly, and arguing the point? Just to look good when in a year or so, you're proved right (if you are)?



...oh wait. It's the internet. What am I saying? Nothing to see here, carry on

 

[Chicago]

Before same-weight was on the table, I agreed with you - performance would have killed it. It has since been suggested that performance will be the same/better, because the paintballs will weigh the same as the old ones. That creates a whole new problem: The new paintballs appear to be better for the people shooting them, but are worse for the people being shot by them. So the person deciding what paintballs to shoot will pick the .50 cal, not caring that the person being shot is having less fun. But the person being shot, and having less fun, quits. It took the industry years to figure out that high volumes of paint (due to tech and cheap paintballs) were killing the rec business. And now it appears we're poised to do the same error all over again!

We only get one shot at a new player. If that player comes out, and gets twice as much paint shot at them because the paintballs are cheaper, and the paint that hits them hurts 4 times as much because it's the same weight and smaller, they are not going to like paintball. They are not going to realize that they would like .68 caliber paintball, because they don't know the difference. All they know is they played paintball, they did not have fun, and they don't want to spend their money to play again.

If .50 cal uses weight to keep performance the same, and those .50 cal performs-better but rips clothing and draws blood paintballs start showing up at rec fields, we are going to cause significant damage to participation.

Over the long term, just like rec fields with high-volume, cheap-paint environments are going out of business, rec fields with higher-volume, cheaper, hurts more .50 cal paintballs will go out of business. But how many players will they have driven away from paintball in the process? How about we just learn from our mistakes in the past and just not do it?


So I'm hoping this is a side-product targeted towards a different set of players than rec players, just like Airsoft is sort of a tangentially-related but not really offshoot of paintball. If people primarily interested in milsim want and use these products, great. Maybe it'll even pull some airsoft people and business away from Airsoft companies to paintball companies. Also great. But if .50 cal is marketed as a rec field paintball, that is a huge problem.

 

[Dusty]

Nobody said it was the same weight, only that it would be a heavier than normal fill.

 

[Robinsucks]

I am trying to withhold judgement until I see this new paint. PMI did .55 cal with Sportshot as recently as a couple years ago and that certainly did not travel further or more accurately. It did however bounce more.

I have a lot of respect for Robbo so I can't imagine he's so fully on board with this without having see these in action. So, did the paint perform as well in person? Did it meet or exceed the claims in the press release? Was it more accurate and flew further? Did it hurt less?

 

[Lucky.One]

I am not going to get into the mertis, mostly because I believe even the promoters of this - some of whom I actually like - are talking out their ass.

1. I bet they haven't fully tested this. I have.

2. IF these PB guys Italia and G -bros were half as smart as they think they are they would hire outside consultants. They have all made too much money are live in lala land. This is NOT how you launch a revolutionary product. You should be forced to walk around for a year w/ a helmet and a bib on if you thought this press release was a good idea.

3. When we kicked this around at PMI 5 years ago we were at least smart enough that the paint was going to be a side effect. The plan in theory was to launch milsim clipfed (at least 4 different guns to start) plus a 'sport gun' that shot about 40-50bps just to make the Markers sO cool the odd and new and cheaper paintball was a tolerable "drawback". The problem was that was going to take **** loads of cash and we had a pb plant to buy...

Well, there are some plenty intelligent guys making really ****ing stupid post. And now I have added my two cents.

For you TLDR, Dumbest ****ing Press Release of the Decade By people who should know better.

Back to the real world.
A.

 

[Dark Warrior]

Interesting
If the paintball weights the same then the size of the paintball does not affect the velocity we can legally shoot at.

I'm just thinking about being hit a .5 paintball fired at 300 ft/s with a denser fill to keep weight same
So you are being hit at the same force except on a smaller surface area, therefore higher chance of bruising

If they just make the paintball smaller and materials remain the same, then legal velocity would increase by approx 20%

 

[Chicago]

Only as far as shipping by mail is concerned. Having done international shipping in the past, the cost of shipping pallets across the world is paid for in volume when done by plane or truck (the amount of space it takes up in a container), and also mostly volume (with a minor extra charge if very heavy) when shipping by plane.
Although I must admit that the "rules" can differ per carrier, but the above is what I dealt with mostly.

So ordering a box of paint, assuming the weight is pretty much the same, will save the consumer nothing on shipping costs, but the wholesaler does save money.

What were you shipping?

When shipping by ship, pretty much only volume matters.

When shipping by plane, pretty much only weight matters.

When shipping by truck, it depends on the product. A truck has volume and mass limits - how much stuff you can fit in the trailer, and how much weight you can put on the truck before you start getting tickets or need special permits. For paint, you'll exceed the weight limit before you exceed the volume limit, so for truck shipping, it's the weight of the paintball that determines shipping cost, not the volume.

So for paint produced and sold in North America, there will not be any shipping savings unless the weight per ball goes down.

 

[Chicago]

Nobody said it was the same weight, only that it would be a heavier than normal fill.

So it won't be the same weight, and the performance will stink?

If you keep the same density and velocity, then the paint should hurt about the same - volume goes down by 8x the caliber decrease, impact area * impact time goes down by 8x the caliber decrease.

But, if you keep the same density and velocity, you will have a paintball that is drastically less accurate, flies a much shorter distance, and bounces a lot more.

You can reduce these problems by increasing either velocity or density. But, if you increase velocity or density, then the paintball is going to cause more damage.


So, do we know that it's going to perform worse? No. Do we know that it's going to hurt more? No. Do we know that it has to be at least one or the other if not both? Yes.

 

[Buddha 3]

I respectfully submit that you don't understand physics. Nobody can violate physics, not even Richmond.

If you make the shell break easier, that means LESS energy is spent breaking the ball, and more impacts the player. If you make the shell harder to break, then you spend more energy breaking the shell, so less energy impacts the player, unless the shell has gotten too hard to break, in which case it will bounce and put even MORE energy into the player.

Regardless, there is pretty much nothing you can do with regards to the shell to make it break with less energy on the player, because the only way to do that is spend more of the energy breaking the ball, but if it takes more energy to break the ball, it's going to start bouncing. And who is going to choose to shoot a paintball that doesn't hurt as much if it's bouncing more? Nobody!

Nobody chooses paint based on how much it hurts. People want the most fragile paint that they can still get out of their gun.



Like hell I don't! Do I know the details about them? No. Do I know enough about physics and paintballs to know, in advance, what the limits on performance will be? Absolutely. It's no different than if someone issued a press release stating they had invented a perpetual motion machine. I don't need to know anything about it to know that it's not true.

If you make the paintball smaller with the same density, it will perform much worse. If you make it smaller with the same weight, it will impact with a force that increases 4 times the amount that the caliber is reduced. You can't have it both ways - if you're going to have similar performance, it's going to draw blood. And if you're not going to draw blood, it's not going to have similar performance. Anything else is simply not possible - and that's not even factoring in the 'cheaper' claim.

Now, they may be very cool for certain applications - perhaps milsim guys who are playing close-quarters or don't mind bleeding when hit. But if we put cheaper paintballs that either perform worse or hurt more (or both) in the hands of the general rec player, we are going to damage participation. A lot.

If this is meant to be a paintball off-shoot for a particular variety of player, great, no harm, no foul. The existence of .50 cal paintballs doesn't need to be any different than the existence of airsoft. But if .50 cal starts showing up at the rec field, we're in trouble.


And if you believe someone has created a paintball that is smaller, performs just as good or better, doesn't cause more damage on impact, AND is cheaper, well.... I have some press releases to send to you too.

Thanks for posting this. This confirms that you have A) your head so far up your own ass that you refuse to admit you know nothing about the product you are discussing, and B) you know FA about physics. I'll send you my diplomas if I thought you mattered, then you could grovel at my feet in apology. This discussion ends here. Watch your mouth from here on.

As far as that last bit about the press releases, watch your talk son. I told you I reserve judgment because I don't know anything about those paintballs, so f*ck your press releases. Watch who you insult with such remarks. I don't believe press releases. I don't believe nay sayers who base their opinions on nothing but assumptions. I believe reality, not arrogance.

 

[Buddha 3]

What were you shipping?

When shipping by ship, pretty much only volume matters.

When shipping by plane, pretty much only weight matters.

When shipping by truck, it depends on the product. A truck has volume and mass limits - how much stuff you can fit in the trailer, and how much weight you can put on the truck before you start getting tickets or need special permits. For paint, you'll exceed the weight limit before you exceed the volume limit, so for truck shipping, it's the weight of the paintball that determines shipping cost, not the volume.

So for paint produced and sold in North America, there will not be any shipping savings unless the weight per ball goes down.

Paintballs.

I win, you lose.