End of the road for pros?

[Chicago]

the ability to at least entertain the idea your opinion isn't sacrosanct.

I don't think my opinion about everything is right. Most things I'm an idiot about. But there are a few things where I do feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on the subject, and once I get to the point where I'm pretty sure about something, I'm pretty sure about it. I understand that it comes off that I'm just pigheaded and unwilling to listen etc., but if there's a discussion and you find I'm particularly inflexible on a topic, it's just because I've put a good deal of consideration into it, and once I've gotten to that point, it's not very often that someone comes up with something new.


But, this is turning into a thread about me instead of a thread about the end of the road for Pro sponsorship.


I don't see any reason Pro teams can't be well-sponsored. Even with the sales decline, there are still well over 2.5 million frequent paintball participants in the US. That is well more than several other extreme-type sports with good sponsor dollar availability. As evidence that a Pro paintball team who makes GOOD BUSINESS DECISIONS can be well-sponsored, I point to Dynasty, who realized that just because they were good paintball players didn't mean they knew a damned thing about financing their team and they got the right people involved to make sure that happened. The teams who didn't do that are the ones who are responsible for having sponsor dollar problems, and blaming a decline in sales is just making excuses. And as long as people keep believing that a sales decline is the reason they are having a tough time being sponsored, they are going to continue to have a tough time being sponsored.


I understand that this message is not convenient nor pleasant and fully expect the resistance I'm getting. But you're not going to convince me that everything would be fine if only paintball companies were still selling as much as they used to. It's just not true.

 

[Missy-Q]

Do you feel that you market your own league well Chris?

 

[Cook$]

Dynasty isnt the only team trying to get their team out there.
Here is our latest effort to get Volvo and Ikea on board!

This will raise our ROI with aprox 48% according to my calculations..

Magued

That makes me want to drive my Volvo to Ikea.... Pretty special!!

 

[Chicago]

Do you feel that you market your own league well Chris?

Are you asking if the league is marketed well or well marketed?

We get a LOT of bang-for-our-buck. But we don't spend any bucks, so the absolute impact is small.

 

[Magued]

I understand that this message is not convenient nor pleasant and fully expect the resistance I'm getting. But you're not going to convince me that everything would be fine if only paintball companies were still selling as much as they used to. It's just not true.

Who have resisted that message? Noone have argued that the pro team should have market themself more. And who have said that everything would be fine? Robbo never did, but you did say that the lower profit had nothing to do with sponsor dollars being cut. Witch you later took back.

Chris, Attitude and social skills is JUST as important as being able to point out problems and solutions. Sure if youre just a guy that dont actuelly do anything in paintball and just want to share your points of view thats one thing. But as I understand it your running a legue, thats on tv and therefore to make your buisness more effective and get people to support your efforts then social skills and being able to talk to people without giving them a negative picture about you personally is key. As I dont know you I would guess that this attitude may have caused you problems with people that you want to work with.

Regarding the pro teams that you seem to have a special problem with, I think all that stuff will fix itself. The teams that fails to market and sell themself will fail, and the ones thats doing the right thing will survive and do fine.

Magued

 

[Chicago]

Also, I think it's important to ask who you're marketing to. We're not out to win the minds of tournament paintball players. The audience is too small. We want to reach 13-25 year old males. All of them.

For example, the paintball mags we're in reach about 150,000 people. The college newspapers we're in reach about 150,000 people. Our out-of-industry sponsors are much more interested in the college newspapers than the paintball magazines.

 

[Missy-Q]

Are you asking if the league is marketed well or well marketed?

We get a LOT of bang-for-our-buck. But we don't spend any bucks, so the absolute impact is small.

I don't think how you say it changes my question.

With all the idea's you have, and the experience you boast of, it just seems so strange to me that you have not implemented some of your own idea's into your league and business model.
It seems clear that you don't market your league inside the paintball industry, as if you had I would have heard about it. If you had made serious effort to market it outside of paintball I feel I woul have picked that up too. I know 3 of your college teams fairly well (SCU, Wa State and Iowa) and have actually been exploring the College market for a while with some success. They are good guys all round, but it seems they would like a litle more marketing and a more concrete place in the traditional paintball arena, where they can feel more exposed. In your role as thier league provider, do you not feel that your idea's would be better realised if they were actually implemented in your own back-yard? In a 'trousers' rather than 'mouth' sense?

To be honest, I think college paintball is essential to the sport, even in its current boring state, and I also feel that the betterment of College competition is as important as the continued success of major league paintball. They are both vital facets of any sport. Perhaps we should have a thread here about how successfully the people responsible for college paintball are guiding this area of the sport? I for one would welcome an oppotunity to tell you how good or bad a job you are doing, and I am sure you won't take it personally. I mean why would you, right?

I would say there are maybe 4 people total that post on here that know anything at all about college paintball - even that it exists - which is not because they are predominantly European, because the people here will happily talk about anything and seem hungry for all paintball knowledge. No, its because no-one has told them. Do you have a relationship with any paintball magazines at all? Do you submit reports of your events to the paintball press? Do you feel any responsibulity to your colleges or sponsors, or TV airtime providers, to let people know that you have a show, a league, teams etc., so that they might get involved or actually watch your shows?

No offence, but before you go advising Dye, a $20m company in 5 years, that they should be hiring publicists for thier players, or telling the Major Leagues that they are doing it all wrong, would it be better to use your insightful and infallable judgement in your own manor, by hiring a marketing guy to show the World what you have there. Perhaps we woudl not be talking about companies making less money at all if the college market was being nurtured and exposed more professionally?

Or is there a reason you are hiding the college market from the traditional market. If so, what is that reason?

 

[Chicago]

Who have resisted that message?

Just Pete.

Noone have argued that the pro team should have market themself more. And who have said that everything would be fine? Robbo never did, but you did say that the lower profit had nothing to do with sponsor dollars being cut. Witch you later took back.

Well you guys can't have it both ways - either I'm inflexible and unwilling to change my opinion or I'm a waffler. Pick one.

I go with inflexible. I never meant it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. The universe just doesn't work like that. I made the mistake of using the word 'nothing' without a qualifier. I meant it figuratively - like "The desert? There's nothing there!" As Pete is apt to do when he feels he is losing an argument, instead of focusing on the issue, he decided to attack my use of the word 'nothing' and interpret the word literally.

An analogy of the argument:

Chicago: "There's nothing in the desert!"
Robbo: "You said there's nothing in the desert, when there is definitely sand in the desert, therefore you're wrong!"

So fine, you guys can win the grammar argument. My original statement could be interpreted to say I meant absolutely nothing. I didn't. I meant very little. Congratulations. You guys win. Because whether I meant absolutely nothing or very nearly nothing proves the sales contraction was the cause of the sponsorship contraction.

Not.

Oh wait, I fear I am displaying this poor attitude that you've been referring to.

Chris, Attitude and social skills is JUST as important as being able to point out problems and solutions. Sure if youre just a guy that dont actuelly do anything in paintball and just want to share your points of view thats one thing. But as I understand it your running a legue, thats on tv and therefore to make your buisness more effective and get people to support your efforts then social skills and being able to talk to people without giving them a negative picture about you personally is key. As I dont know you I would guess that this attitude may have caused you problems with people that you want to work with.

Don't confuse p8ntballer.com internet persona with my entire personality. I don't post on the internet to make frieds or even be liked. I post, mostly, to be entertaining. And I do it differently depending on the audience. My persona here is not the same as, for example, pbnation or automags.org.

Are you going to be in Kansas City? If so, I will buy you a beer, or other beverage of choice. I assure you I am not evil.

Regarding the pro teams that you seem to have a special problem with, I think all that stuff will fix itself. The teams that fails to market and sell themself will fail, and the ones thats doing the right thing will survive and do fine.

Maybe. I'm concerned that if enough teams don't figure it out soon enough there could be some trouble. And I'm disappointed that most of them missed the last boat - if Pro teams had managed to get out of the paintball market and into the general market, the industry as a whole would be healthier. Or even if they had done a better job of reaching outside the TOURNAMENT market into the general paintball market, we'd be healthier.

Pro team marketing isn't just about the pro teams themselves. It's about giving current and potential players a way to get and stay emotionally invested in the sport they play.

 

[Missy-Q]

Also, I think it's important to ask who you're marketing to. We're not out to win the minds of tournament paintball players. The audience is too small. We want to reach 13-25 year old males. All of them.

For example, the paintball mags we're in reach about 150,000 people. The college newspapers we're in reach about 150,000 people. Our out-of-industry sponsors are much more interested in the college newspapers than the paintball magazines.

I'm sorry but this does not wash. If you want to expose to all 13-25 year olds, then you would reach that exact age group through traditional paintball. You could also do it for free, so there is no excuse you can use that would compensate for this lack of positive action. As in college football, the best college players should be scouted by the pro teams, and should have ambition to play for them. I know they have this ambition already and no amount of closeting at this stage will change that.

Your numbers above make no sense, so I will guess it was a typo. Whatever the number you put on paintball mags (and bear in mind that there are people on here that know these numbers far better than you) makes no difference. Writing an article and issuing a press release is FOC. The only reason not to do so is apathetic and in no way valid.

Marketing, and in particular sports marketing, is about covering ground and exposing the product. You are not interested in exposing your paintball product to the paintball industry? How does that benefit your players? 6 months ago you could have given me any old answer and I would have had to believe you. However I now have a decent idea of what your customer-base wants, and I am having a hard time reconciling that with what you are telling me now....

 

[shamu]

This has been a fun discussion to read (aside from the chicago bashing, but even that had it's moments).

I was going to make a really good point but it got long and complicated and frankly, I can't be arsed to write all that out for free. So here's the nutshell version:

In your discussion about company owners, it seems you've overlooked one key point: garbage in, garbage out. Meaning - Robbo's insights may be based on insider information but if that information is flawed then the insights derived from that information will also be flawed.

I doubt Youngblood, Rennick or the Gardners are lying when they talk to Robbo. However, they probably have a blind spot regarding the sport which biases their judgement. They may see the industry downturn as responsible for reducing sponsorship, while not recognizing there are other factors in the equation. I'm not saying they're not smart guys, but the personal relationship to the sport may allow them to make excuses or ignore certain pressures without realizing they're doing it. Someone from outside the industry probably doesn't have the same baggage so may make different decisions with the same information.

In short - I agree with Magued. The truth is somewhere between the two arguements (robbo and chicago).

PS - Magued, thanks for the videos. Goj cracks me up.