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End of the road for pros?

Chicago

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Yep totally see your point but would it not just have a knock on effect to the Semi pro division ? all the teams that fell out of the top 8 pro teams would I presume go semi pro and therefore this would become a real large division which will need the same resources to run ?

When you say Profitable divisions, I thought the Pro brackets paid the highest entrance fees ? - may well be wrong though, but I guess the entrance fees are relevant to the prize money ?

I guess we will soon hear what is planned for next year, how many teams are "Pro", who gets what and what format we're playing....
Profitability is amount of money made after paying for prizes for that division and the field time and reffing.

Think about it this way - what if you doubled the entry fees, and halved the number of teams? When you get down to it, very little of the cost of maintaining a Pro team is in the entry fees - it's the travel costs, practice costs, paint, etc. So doubling the entry fee might cost 10% or 20% more on the annual team sponsorship budget, but if you were sponsoring two teams and now just sponsor one team instead - you just saved a bunch of money.

And since you're spending half the amount of resources to run this event with half the number of teams, you have more money to spend on refs. Win-Win.
 

Robbo

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Mario - in my opinion there are lots of people in many sports that get things that they don't deserve. Do middle of the Premiership teams players deserve £30,000 a week ?

problem is this, I will use the term "we" as I am fortunate enough to play for a Pro team, however am happy to say that as I am here at work tapping away I am not a "Pro" in the sense that I get paid a wage to play, ( but thanks for everything anyway DYE ).
OK, so you have established that you (and the vast majority of other pro players) are not pro at all (in the definitive sense) .... no arguments from me on that one mate..

In one hand there are threads about the state of UK paintball and that it is not very good, the players suck and a UK team will never win anything - OK thats fine.
Well, it is fine because it is 100% true as things stand, I don't think our pro players suck but they are nowhere near as good as the Yanks or Joy or Boston Legion's .... that has been my point of view !!


Take a team like Nexus, if we were to pay for everything we use, paint we shoot and flights etc we would not be able to do a fraction of what we are doing right now.

We all know the only way to get better is to train and we have never trained so hard than this year and in return we have never placed so highly in any series, currently 3rd in the Millennium so it is starting to pay off however we are way behind teams like Joy.

Leigh, if you are answering this within the context of UK pro players (as you certainly seem to be doing) then it is academic to even mention your 3rd placing at events because you have Brandon Short and Mikka (sp) playing for you.
Brandon is now arguably one of the best 3 players in the world with a lot of our sport's sophisticates tagging him as the next Ollie Lang; Mikka is an ex Russian Legion and Ironmen player, these two guys now constitute 40% of your team.
I don't think you can contextualize your points here in terms of UK Pros, especially when you try to justify your points with your 3rd place when Brandon and Mikka are playing.
If you wish to make a point within a UK pro player context then you have to think where you would be without those two guys and I tell ya something Leigh, you wouldn't be getting past the first round mate...you know this to be true Leigh, or at least you should suspect it.
I am sure there will be a few idiots in the team who will bleat otherwise but I am afraid it's 100% true.

So, DYE give us everything and we are sitting 3rd, if we would have to start paying for training, with the amount we do we would not train as much therefore results would get worse, which means another UK team sucking even more.
The industry doesn't support teams for the team's sake Leigh, they support teams to get a return on investment (ROI) and thier ROI for any pro team, not just nexus, just doesn't stack up at the moment.
The only way they have previously justified any ROI is by media presence in a positive light and you know full well that has been acutely compromised.
I have spoke to Dave many times on this subject as you well know and he is not immune from market forces and will consequently look toward a more accountable way of managing his stable of teams ... this is inevitable.

Please don't get me wrong - I am not saying that we are setting the world on fire with a third place and I know we have never won an event, we are not exactly over the moon about it ourselves but we are trying.

You got 3rd place once...with Brandon and Mikka...

So what would you rather see ?

Pro teams getting help in trying to reach the top of the pile

The only way nexus will get to the top of the Euro pile is by increasing the 40% to 100% ...in other words, get the ironmen to play the nexus spot...not really palatable but nevertheless true.
And it's true because :-
a) We don't have the talent base and
b) We haven't got the resource package to enable weekly training, which is what we need to do if you want to improve toward the standard of play exemplified by the NXL or NPPL pro league.
c) We don't have the necessary coaches who know what they are doing.

or

Pro teams getting less help = less time playing = players getting worse = teams getting worse = less pro teams around.
Leigh, you play in the Millennium mate, not the NPPL or NXL, it's a relatively small pond and in small ponds, the only thing that really counts is a first place. nobody gives a damn about 2nd downwards in a small pond, once again unpalatable but true.
When the Yanks stopped coming over and we locked our leagues, our pond got smaller...a lot smaller.

To answer your question, no - we don't deserve what we get but companies like DYE want to help us thankfully. If DYE decided to give you free paintball as well, I very much doubt you would deserve it also, but you would take it, be thankful for it and try your best at playing.

In my opinion, if teams have their deals cut which looks like the inevitable, then this can only be bad news for the Pro leagues as a whole with only 6/7teams being able to play in it and to the level that players want to see.

Leigh - Nexus.

Leigh, we are all caught up in the industry's contraction, this is not just a nexus problem here, this is an industry problem and when the financials are bad, everybody comes under closer scrutiny and those who do not 100% justify financial support will now be under pressure ... you guys (pros) are a victim of that and the fact pro teams have been living in a fools paradise for way too long.
 

Chicago

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you guys (pros) are a victim of that and the fact pro teams have been living in a fools paradise for way too long.
You know what? I call bull****. The Pro teams are not a victim of anything other than total inability to plan for their own future. How many Pro teams did anything other than blow all their resources playing tournaments, and not doing it all that well? How many Pro teams took their play SERIOUSLY, as a BUSINESS?

Almost none.

So, when you spent the past 5 years living 'the good life', flying around the planet, partying hard, living off the generosity of paintball business owners who just happened to be as interested in flying around and living the good life as you did, but did nothing to establish other means of revenue, nothing to put yourself in a position to create actual value for your sponsors, nothing to create a permanent brand and audience for your team, whose fault is it that suddenly the rest of the world woke up, realized you haven't been worth even a fraction of the money people have been giving you, and they stop giving you that money?

For example:

http://www.dynastypaintball.com/

How many pro teams have anything even approaching that? And I don't just mean the website. You don't see Dynasty worrying about the 'industry contracting'.


"The industry is contracting" is a scapegoat. If Pro paintball teams were WORTH sponsoring, they would be sponsored, whether the industry was contracting or not. The problem is that Pro paintball teams, mostly, have *NEVER* been worth sponsoring, and the 'industry contracting' is just making that painfully obvious, as the people who didn't have the business sense to see this fact, or were personally involved in the sport to the point that they didn't care, are forced to make hard choices when they're not just rolling in extra money.


That's what the whole 'victims of the industry contracting' argument boils down to - that Pro paintball teams are only going to get sponsored when paintball companies have piles of extra money to waste. Counting on other people wanting to waste money on you isn't a very bright business plan, and make no mistake, Pro paintball team is a business.


So what are Pro paintball teams a victim of really? They're a victim of not taking **** seriously, and that's it.
 

jim

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Talent base

Robbo you said in your previous post "We don't have the talent base", and i know you have been there in the past with the UKs best, Nexus. With the players the UK has today throughout the top CPL and SPL teams do you think an all star UK team could go further than Nexus did/has.
 

Lucky

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How many Pro teams took their play SERIOUSLY, as a BUSINESS?

Almost none.

For example:

http://www.dynastypaintball.com/

How many pro teams have anything even approaching that? And I don't just mean the website. You don't see Dynasty worrying about the 'industry contracting'.


So what are Pro paintball teams a victim of really? They're a victim of not taking **** seriously, and that's it.
This is a good point?
Before all this blew up, i had wondered at the short sightedness of commercial marketing for our major suppliers and teams.
For instance: Currently we have just a few brands that are selling Tee's, beanies and hoodies.......but only to paintballers?
Why?
Everyone is missing a major source of external funding by simply not making the designs a little more "mainstream consumer" friendly. With the use of a sexy logo, mainstream design, commercial marketing the worlds your piggybank.
Don't believe me?
20 years old, just like paintball?
http://www.animal.co.uk/fe/htm/intro/intro.asp

23 years old
http://www.redbull.co.uk/#page=CompanyPage.AsTimeGoesBy

That's just 2 examples and both are multi-million pound monsters today.
Now if dynasty can become a commercial entity, then why not anyone else? beats me? Everyone too busy partying?

I have a couple of Dye hoodies. The amount of people that have commented on them and asked where they can get one only to be put off when i tell them they have to mail order them because shops don't sell them?
They're all missing a big cash injection in my opinion:eek:
 

Robbo

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You know what? I call bull****. The Pro teams are not a victim of anything other than total inability to plan for their own future. How many Pro teams did anything other than blow all their resources playing tournaments, and not doing it all that well? How many Pro teams took their play SERIOUSLY, as a BUSINESS?

Almost none.

So, when you spent the past 5 years living 'the good life', flying around the planet, partying hard, living off the generosity of paintball business owners who just happened to be as interested in flying around and living the good life as you did, but did nothing to establish other means of revenue, nothing to put yourself in a position to create actual value for your sponsors, nothing to create a permanent brand and audience for your team, whose fault is it that suddenly the rest of the world woke up, realized you haven't been worth even a fraction of the money people have been giving you, and they stop giving you that money?

For example:

http://www.dynastypaintball.com/

How many pro teams have anything even approaching that? And I don't just mean the website. You don't see Dynasty worrying about the 'industry contracting'.


"The industry is contracting" is a scapegoat. If Pro paintball teams were WORTH sponsoring, they would be sponsored, whether the industry was contracting or not. The problem is that Pro paintball teams, mostly, have *NEVER* been worth sponsoring, and the 'industry contracting' is just making that painfully obvious, as the people who didn't have the business sense to see this fact, or were personally involved in the sport to the point that they didn't care, are forced to make hard choices when they're not just rolling in extra money.


That's what the whole 'victims of the industry contracting' argument boils down to - that Pro paintball teams are only going to get sponsored when paintball companies have piles of extra money to waste. Counting on other people wanting to waste money on you isn't a very bright business plan, and make no mistake, Pro paintball team is a business.


So what are Pro paintball teams a victim of really? They're a victim of not taking **** seriously, and that's it.


Chi, I'm not sure what you are saying is BS here coz I am in almost complete agreement with what you have said ......
 

Robbo

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Robbo you said in your previous post "We don't have the talent base", and i know you have been there in the past with the UKs best, Nexus. With the players the UK has today throughout the top CPL and SPL teams do you think an all star UK team could go further than Nexus did/has.
Nope, no chnace......nexus were best when we had all Brits playing and they all listened to what was being taught and some of them not disappearing up thier own ass in believing the hype ... it is no coincidence that our best performances came in our first year when most of the guys were willing to learn.

To go from nothing to 7th ranked in the world in under a year was just too much for some of them to handle, and their immaturity not only showed in the coming years but also flourished.

As for a Brit team being formed out of the best players we have, and those guys then being able to compete with the top guys?
Not a chance in hell, it would take at least a year's training for those guys to get anywhere near being competitive with the Yanks and they have to do that with a coach who knows what he's doing.
 

Chicago

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Chi, I'm not sure what you are saying is BS here coz I am in almost complete agreement with what you have said ......
The "BS" wasn't directed at you, just the general 'Waaah, Pro players are victims (blah blah blah)' sentiment that seems to be floating around lately.
 

Robbo

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"The industry is contracting" is a scapegoat. If Pro paintball teams were WORTH sponsoring, they would be sponsored, whether the industry was contracting or not. The problem is that Pro paintball teams, mostly, have *NEVER* been worth sponsoring, and the 'industry contracting' is just making that painfully obvious, as the people who didn't have the business sense to see this fact, or were personally involved in the sport to the point that they didn't care, are forced to make hard choices when they're not just rolling in extra money.


That's what the whole 'victims of the industry contracting' argument boils down to - that Pro paintball teams are only going to get sponsored when paintball companies have piles of extra money to waste. Counting on other people wanting to waste money on you isn't a very bright business plan, and make no mistake, Pro paintball team is a business.


So what are Pro paintball teams a victim of really? They're a victim of not taking **** seriously, and that's it.
Chris, I just read this again and need some clarification on what you mean, are you saying the sole reason for the pros coming under threat of a contracting sponsorship is solely because they are not professional and nothing to do with compromised industry sales?????
 

Chicago

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Chris, I just read this again and need some clarification on what you mean, are you saying the sole reason for the pros coming under threat of a contracting sponsorship is solely because they are not professional and nothing to do with compromised industry sales?????
I think there are four things at work. I think none of them are contracting sales.

One, Pro team sponsorship, especially at the levels that Pro teams enjoyed for many years (playing the US and European circuits, etc) was *NEVER* a good business decision. But, because the guys who ran the paintball companies were the same guys who were playing on the teams, the fact that sponsoring Pro teams was a bad business was overlooked.

Two, paintball companies are getting bought out by people who do not play paintball, and look at paintball team sponsorship as a business decision, and quickly determined that sponsoring pro paintball teams at the level they had become accustomed to was a bad business decision. What does a sponsor get by spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on a Pro team?

Now, I'll spend an extra paragraph here: It is possible that for companies like DYE and Smart Parts that *IF* their level of sponsorship is contracting it is because, due to lack of sales, they are forced to make some hard decisions and spending their profits on paintball teams was a decision that was easy to make, since cutting sponsorship of your Pro paintball teams isn't going to affect your sales (because, as we showed above, sponsoring the teams in the first place wasn't affecting your sales, and if you're going to cut spending, you sure as hell don't want to cut it where it's going to hurt your business!)

But, one and two are both symptoms of the same thing: Most pro teams are not worth the money - they don't increase sales enough to make up for the money spent on them; or at least, don't do it as well as spending that same money somewhere else.

Anyway, on to three: Pro paintball teams spend too much money on stuff they don't need to spend it on. There are teams out there that fly players to practice every weekend, or fly the whole team somewhere else to practice. One way to make it easier for your team to be sponsored and compete is to cut your expenses. Maybe a player who is local to you who isn't QUITE as talented as the guy you are flying in is a better business decision than spending an extra $5,000+ a year flying a guy around. Pro paintball teams need to learn to operate under more restricted budgets.

And four: Back when the teams WERE getting big sponsor dollars despite not being a good business decision, almost NONE of them did anything to CHANGE the fact that they were a bad business decision. I'll take Dynasty as an example to the contrary - they probably remain one of the few teams where spending a pile of money on them gets you a return. Even when they were struggling last year. Why? Because they developed beyond just being a team that shows up at events; they took the time, energy, and money they had and put it into developing a Dynasty brand. Did anybody else do this? Certainly not enough people. The Pro paintball teams utterly failed to brand themselves into something that COULD provide value to sponsors when they had the opportunity to do so.


Anyway, I reiterate that the reduced sponsorship for Pro teams has almost NOTHING to do with the reduced sales. Looking at it another way, what if instead of sales contracting, they had continued to grow a bit more, but everything else had stayed the same. What do you think would have happened then?

Exactly the same thing - the same people would have bought the businesses, and the same people would have looked at how much they were spending on Pro teams, and the same people would have said "This is a waste of money" and cut team sponsorship spending.


You see, whether or not you sponsor a Pro team isn't really based on how much money you're making over all. It's based on whether or not you think sponsoring that team is going to get you even MORE money. If you spend $500,000 on a Pro team and make $1,000,000 because of it, you WILL sponsor that team, whether your sales are 150% what they were last year, the same, or 50%.


So when people blame contracting sales, they have entirely missed the problem. The sales don't matter. If you were worth more than what it cost to sponsor you, you'd be sponsored.