Like it or not, we need Yank teams over here

[Bunkerkidz]

It is taken for granted that teams will want to get better (and accordingly train and commit) and therefore is a common denominator to both options (Yanks coming and Yanks not coming) and can therefore be factored out, which leaves us with....teams will get better if we have better teams to play against.

I cannot for the life of me understand your reasoning here other than flagging up something that should be obvious to all.

What I mean to say is that for teams to get better, they always have to want to get better and they have to work and practice for it.

As you can see, there are already some teams that compete in CPL which are somewhat outclassed (Or out"guested") by the top teams in the League, kind of like with Ultimate in the NXL, and you don't see them improving immensely from event to event just because they play against better teams.

Ultimate plays against the world's best teams on a regular basis and yet in 3 years in the NXL they have only won 1 (That's right, one) match.

The European teams that have managed to elevate themselves to the "American" level, such as Joy Division and the Russians, did so because they adopted a very serious training program, and because not only did they have the dedication from their players, but also the conditions to be able to practice that much.

If you are an underfunded European team whose players need to have a fulltime job in order to support Paintball and who are not likely to have the availability to practice 4 or 5 times a week (Unlike teams like Joy Division or the Russians) then you will find it pretty much impossible to adopt such a training program.

So basicly, you are running this discussion on the basis that all European teams would have the possibility, the funding to allow them to practice and the possibility/will to do it when in fact I don't think alot of the teams do.

So long story short, I don't think that European is in a position right now where it would be able to fully benefit from the presence of American teams, it would just contribute to benefit a few select Euro teams and drag the others down.

So in my opinion, there are still alot of other things that need to be sorted before having American teams over can be a point of discussion.

 

[Robbo]

There are many ways to improve, training is but one, another is obviously playing top end teams; if you have both, then cool, and i agree, you need both to become competitive with the Yanks.
However, your post above implied there would be no improvement for teams by just playing against better teams, I dispute that 100%

I realise what you are now saying, in that if you go up against better teams, and train better you will have a greater improvement than just playing those better teams but that wasn't the point I was making.

Mind you, I think we all agree that in the present climate, we ain't got a cat in hell's chance with resources in the state they are and so just going up against better teams now, without the attendant resource package will get us nowhere in terms of becoming competitive with the Yanks, that I will agree.

We are second class citizens in a second class league scrabbling for the crumbs Joy leave behind ..... we better learn to live with it coz I ain't seen no European team in the CPL get anywhere near Joy in terms of quality of play.
Mind you, some of our pro players can say 'duuuude' and high five each other .....that must mean something, mustn't it? .... yeh it does..

 

[Bunkerkidz]

There are many ways to improve, training is but one, another is obviously playing top end teams; if you have both, then cool, and i agree, you need both to become competitive with the Yanks.
However, your post above implied there would be no improvement for teams by just playing against better teams, I dispute that 100%

I realise what you are now saying, in that if you go up against better teams, and train better you will have a greater improvement than just playing those better teams but that wasn't the point I was making.

Mind you, I think we all agree that in the present climate, we ain't got a cat in hell's chance with resources in the state they are and so just going up against better teams now, without the attendant resource package will get us nowhere in terms of becoming competitive with the Yanks, that I will agree.

We are second class citizens in a second class league scrabbling for the crumbs Joy leave behind ..... we better learn to live with it coz I ain't seen no European team in the CPL get anywhere near Joy in terms of quality of play.
Mind you, some of our pro players can say 'duuuude' and high five each other .....that must mean something, mustn't it? .... yeh it does..

Yes, I agree completely that by playing/watching/hearing better teams you will always improve, even if by identifying what they do and trying to emulate it, but again, practice makes perfect and you can only really "learn" (I use learn here as in being able to adopt and apply the same type of winning behaviour you saw in the better teams) if you have a chance to perfect it with practice, alot of practice.

If you understood that I was saying that there would be no improvement, than I explained myself wrong, I just don't think that there is substantial improvement by playing teams that are much better than you. And that the negative effects, such as driving teams outside of the league for thinking they can't compete and draining sponsorship money from the Euro teams would outweigh the positive ones.

And right now alot of teams don't have the structure and backing that's needed to allow them to do that, to allow them to effectively be able to learn their lessons from the better teams, to fully be able to benefit from playing teams of higher caliber.

And I also do agree about the fact that CPL right now has it's 1st and 2nd place pretty much locked, wether it will be Joy or the Dogs is another matter.

The rest of the teams are pretty much miles behind the top ones and I don't see it changing anytime soon, simply because we still lack the professionalism and the structure that those top teams have.

Teams need to act according to their PRO rank, this means being able to devote significant time to paintball and to practice, adopting all the necessary steps to win, and realize that it's not going to come easy, but it either comes hard or it doesn't come at all.

 

[Magued]

Gil

Just a note.

"not everyone has the sponsorship budget or the practice conditions of Joy Division."

In Joy everybody have a full time job, no one expect Max is actuelly making a living of paintball. We didnt have a huge sponsorship, hell we payed for our paint up till 2006. And we pay rent for the training facility and take vacation and time of work to be able to play.

What we have done everybody can do that are motivated! Thats the key world. Not big sponsors, big sponsors comes much easier after you have trained hard and delivered good results. I would say that our budget is about 30% of the top teams in the US. And the only reason we could do it was beacuse of the reballs that made it possible to practice as much as we wanted, now whats stopping everybody else to do it?

Magued

 

[Bunkerkidz]

Just a note.

"not everyone has the sponsorship budget or the practice conditions of Joy Division."

In Joy everybody have a full time job, no one expect Max is actuelly making a living of paintball. We didnt have a huge sponsorship, hell we payed for our paint up till 2006. And we pay rent for the training facility and take vacation and time of work to be able to play.

What we have done everybody can do that are motivated! Thats the key world. Not big sponsors, big sponsors comes much easier after you have trained hard and delivered good results. I would say that our budget is about 30% of the top teams in the US. And the only reason we could do it was beacuse of the reballs that made it possible to practice as much as we wanted, now whats stopping everybody else to do it?

Magued

Magued, I am not for a second trying to take anything away from you guys, because I actually know (From when I played with you and from talking to the players) how hard you had it, everything you achieved, you did so through hard work and alot of dedication and that is definetely something to be admired, and you guys are without a doubt a history of sucess people should look to.

But at the present time, I'm sure you will agree that Joy Division has better sponsorship than for instance, Copenhagen Ducks, Icon or Paintoon?

I merely said that to illustrate the point that right now, it would he harder for teams such as the ones I listed to be able to adopt such a training program, especially since I'm sure players in those teams are required to pay alot more to go to an event than for instance a player on Joy or the Dogs (Again, I'm purely especulating, I may be wrong), and as such would be required to work to pay those expenses at the very least.

And to awnser your final question: "What's stopping everyone else from doing it?"

I personally believe it is the lack of a professional structure and a somewhat amateurish attitude on behalf of alot of people/teams that is still holding them back.

Things need to change if we ever want the playing level in Europe to rival that of the US.

 

[flyingFatman]

There are many ways to improve, training is but one, another is obviously playing top end teams; if you have both, then cool, and i agree, you need both to become competitive with the Yanks.
However, your post above implied there would be no improvement for teams by just playing against better teams, I dispute that 100%

I realise what you are now saying, in that if you go up against better teams, and train better you will have a greater improvement than just playing those better teams but that wasn't the point I was making.

Mind you, I think we all agree that in the present climate, we ain't got a cat in hell's chance with resources in the state they are and so just going up against better teams now, without the attendant resource package will get us nowhere in terms of becoming competitive with the Yanks, that I will agree.

We are second class citizens in a second class league scrabbling for the crumbs Joy leave behind ..... we better learn to live with it coz I ain't seen no European team in the CPL get anywhere near Joy in terms of quality of play.
Mind you, some of our pro players can say 'duuuude' and high five each other .....that must mean something, mustn't it? .... yeh it does..

Wow. I can now say I officially agree with an Englishmen. Robbo you got it down.

But also us Americans need to have teams like Joy, Nexus, Kelly's to be able to play against some of the best teams in the world. There is alot of skill in the States, but there is only so much that all that practice against the stateside teams can provide. I have practiced with Rocky Knuth and He says that he loves to be able to play against European teams because of their quality of play. I wish that all European Teams where that good and came across the pond because that would enhance the level of play here.


But that is just my opinion.

 

[crazy-lacey]

yank team

this was my point of view to it even got spoke out by nicky t on nppl live lol but yes i totaly agree

 

[Robbo]

Wow. I can now say I officially agree with an Englishmen. Robbo you got it down.

But also us Americans need to have teams like Joy, Nexus, Kelly's to be able to play against some of the best teams in the world. There is alot of skill in the States, but there is only so much that all that practice against the stateside teams can provide. I have practiced with Rocky Knuth and He says that he loves to be able to play against European teams because of their quality of play. I wish that all European Teams where that good and came across the pond because that would enhance the level of play here.


But that is just my opinion.

I don't wanna deflate you in any way mate but I know Rocky really well and we have talked many times.
I am afraid if you are suggesting that when you guys play against our teams(excepting Joy) that you can improve, then this is wrong.
Your improvement curve will be steeper playing against yourselves I'm afraid.
If Rocky said that, then he would have been focusing on the Russian Legion and Joy and maybe the Nexus of 2003 but trust me on this next point, he would learn little to nothing from any other Euro team whatsoever.

The only reason the Yanks need us Euros (once again, Excepting the RL and Joy) is to validate the 'international' or 'world' tag each series may boast, the Yanks do not need us to improve their own game, sorry to burst your bubble mate but that is the unpalatable truth of the matter.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Mind you, I think we all agree that in the present climate, we ain't got a cat in hell's chance with resources in the state they are and so just going up against better teams now, without the attendant resource package will get us nowhere in terms of becoming competitive with the Yanks, that I will agree.

That was actually more or less my point, when I said it was too soon - but I guess it took a portuguese to put it in words you would accept

Nick

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

But at the present time, I'm sure you will agree that Joy Division has better sponsorship than for instance, Copenhagen Ducks, Icon or Paintoon?

Maybe Joy get a few more free guns and a bit more paint (because they play 2 major leagues instead of one).... but that is about it... It's not like Magued is paying for any of his players to practice instead of working!

Also, Joy started this process more than 3 years ago, when their budget was LOWER than the Ducks (I know that for a fact)..... so really, budget does not enter into it..... only COMMITMENT and DETERMINATION does.

Nick