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[Nick Brockdorff]

Hmm

I think this whole issue has gone somewhat over the top.

I love Joy Division, and I am immensely proud that guys that are my firends, do so well at the very highest level of our sport. - Nobody can take away from them, that they are the first ever truly european team to win a major stateside.

But, in this sport, at that level, nobody is squeegee clean (pun intended) - trust me, I know

Yes, there is absolutely no doubt, that watching the last minute of the game in question, the refs made a mistake, and handed the victory to Dynasty erroneously.

But, if you look earlier in the match - and you have a lot of experience in paintball - the way Sebban acts in his bunker (centre back), whilst Alex is screaming that he is hit.... you might easily get the feeling that it was poetic justice, when the win went to Dynasty eventually

There is an interview with Yosh somewhere online, where he comments on the whole debate, and I personally think he is right..... except for his talking about gamesmanship and fairness, which is a BIT rich coming from a top Pro player

On all the suspensions, etc. - that is just stupid.... nobody really did anything in that game to warrant a suspension... this is a game for grown ups afterall

Nick

 

[Robbo]

But, if you look earlier in the match - and you have a lot of experience in paintball - the way Sebban acts in his bunker (centre back), whilst Alex is screaming that he is hit.... you might easily get the feeling that it was poetic justice, when the win went to Dynasty eventually


Nick

Crash - Bang - Wallop !!!!!

Welcome back Nick, way to go mate with your first post back, I await a reply from Magued, I will stay out of the ensuing scando-battle and go get the popcorn

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Naaah - I think Magued is too intelligent to answer that - what could he possibly gain?

Also, I do not know if Sebban did anything wrong... nor does anyone else, except himself - I'm merely saying that he seemed to be playing in a "funny way" - and had I been a ref there, I would have been all over him for making those movements... for all I know, something may just have bounced on him and he thought it broke

But - seeing it just makes me wonder

One thing that is clear to me after the whole debate following that game, is that it is a extremely dangerous precedent to set, to use video to alter calls made in game.

I mean, the videos posted leave SO many unanswered questions:

- Did Sebban wipe?
- Did Karl get Alex first or vice versa?
- Did BC get shot before he got to the snake?
- Did BC miss Karl until he was on the ground and Karl shot him first?
- Did someone else cheat earlier in the game in some whay?

To name a few... and the video "evidence" in completely inconclusive on all points.

I think the main lesson learned should be, that video is never again to be used to correct mistakes made in paintball, because you can never ever cover all angles and all eventualities in video.

AND - that every league in this sport (possibly with the exception of the NXL, which I have never watched except on video), has a MAJOR reffing issue that should be top of mind for the whole sport and industry. - There are simply too many crappy refs out there allowed to wreck havoc with serious teams chances, through their goodhearted incompetence... Missy might remember a debate we had to that effect a few months back - before the whole Joy/Dynasty issue reared its ugly head

Nick

 

[Robbo]

Naaah - I think Magued is too intelligent to answer that - what could he possibly gain?

Also, I do not know if Sebban did anything wrong... nor does anyone else, except himself - I'm merely saying that he seemed to be playing in a "funny way" - and had I been a ref there, I would have been all over him for making those movements... for all I know, something may just have bounced on him and he thought it broke

But - seeing it just makes me wonder

One thing that is clear to me after the whole debate following that game, is that it is a extremely dangerous precedent to set, to use video to alter calls made in game.

I mean, the videos posted leave SO many unanswered questions:

- Did Sebban wipe?
- Did Karl get Alex first or vice versa?
- Did BC get shot before he got to the snake?
- Did BC miss Karl until he was on the ground and Karl shot him first?
- Did someone else cheat earlier in the game in some whay?

To name a few... and the video "evidence" in completely inconclusive on all points.

I think the main lesson learned should be, that video is never again to be used to correct mistakes made in paintball, because you can never ever cover all angles and all eventualities in video.

AND - that every league in this sport (possibly with the exception of the NXL, which I have never watched except on video), has a MAJOR reffing issue that should be top of mind for the whole sport and industry. - There are simply too many crappy refs out there allowed to wreck havoc with serious teams chances, through their goodhearted incompetence... Missy might remember a debate we had to that effect a few months back - before the whole Joy/Dynasty issue reared its ugly head

Nick

I think the one thing that we can safely conclude from all this , and you obviously mention it quite rightly is, everybody cheats in the pro scene and it's merely a matter of degree.
And in acknowledging this, it makes redundant any moral high ground being assumed by anybody with connections to the pro scene.
In truth, our pro scene sucks, big time !!!
We are all a bunch of self-serving, amoral hypocrites !!!!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

In truth, our pro scene sucks, big time !!!

M8 - EVERY Pro scene sucks - in any sport

Cricket, golf, tennis and sailing are no better - despite being "gentlemanly sports".

It's human nature, when something becomes your livelyhood and/or your owerpowering passion.

We can never change that, no matter what we do, but we CAN improve the level of officiating quite a bit.... which is what will go a long way keeping that ugly human nature in check

Nick

 

[Baca Loco]

I think the one thing that we can safely conclude from all this , and you obviously mention it quite rightly is, everybody cheats in the pro scene and it's merely a matter of degree.
And in acknowledging this, it makes redundant any moral high ground being assumed by anybody with connections to the pro scene.
In truth, our pro scene sucks, big time !!!
We are all a bunch of self-serving, amoral hypocrites !!!!

Just a wee bit too much I think, gents. Yes, many Pro players will cheat and will do so without giving it a second thought other than to calculate the odds of getting caught. Tho not even that most of the time. But so will many non-Pro players in my experience. If you want to take the position it's more prevalent at the Pro level, fair enough, maybe it is. I'm not prepared to argue degrees. What I will argue is that it is universal as I know without doubt it isn't. There are Pro players who do not cheat. They may on occasion run foul of the rulebook but that isn't the same thing.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Just a wee bit too much I think, gents

We are not gents - we used to play Pro

Nick

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Seriously though - I might have to qualify - I should have put "sucks" in quotation marks (there, I just did it ) - I don't think our Pro scene sucks in the sense that it can be vastly improved in any way - which is where the human nature bit comes in.... It is how it is, and will continue to be so, and the only thing that will change, is the way people try to cheat, depending on rules, enforcement and officiating.

Nick

 

[Chicago]

Nick, I must be missing something here - what call was overturned based on video?

In fact, NPPL seems to have gone out of their way to NOT change any calls, which is what, at this point, they should have done.

The only thing that really changed was Sebban's suspension was overturned. I don't think upholding a suspension is an in-game call, and when you discipline players outside of the in-game context, I don't see anything wrong with looking at the video.

But nobody who got pulled was 'put back in the game', none of the penalties were changed, the flag hang wasn't reversed, and Fraige and Cole, although it looks like they could justifiably be assessed suspensions based on the video footage, were not.

I really don't see how NPPL could have handled this any better post-event, and I don't see any dangerous precedent here.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Nick, I must be missing something here - what call was overturned based on video?

Let me clarify.

In the game in question, there is absolutely no doubt that Sebban should have his suspension lifted. - I agree wholeheartedly with the verdict.

But, It disagrees with me that the descision was based on video evidence - as I believe it creates a dangerous precedent.

You may not view it as a "call" as such - but to me, when it is in the rules, it is all part of the same mix, and there is no distinction in the rules as to what decisions can be overturned based on video evidence, and which cannot.

My point is, that while I believe the descision to lift the suspension is correct, I fiercely oppose the manner in which it was reached, because I see an abyss opening here, with teams running up to refs after games to document this and that with handheld cameras, videos surfacing weeks after the fact documenting (or trying to) that some ref made a mistake or some player cheated, and so on.

Alternatively, the rules should clearly state, that video evidence can only be used in connection with suspensions, which are decided upon after the event anyway.

Nick