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X-ball scores! Inquiring minds need to know.

TheRo0sTer

VW's are the game
Oh god here we go again America this and America that... Why can't everyone be like Robbo and give the winners their props? :D Seriously though... Really sucks to hear the reffing was one sided. But who were the Refs at this tourney? Players that might get something from turning a blind eye? I tell you if I were to ref as well as Robbo I wouldn't take **** from anyone! :D
 

Robbo

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This is the deal, the judges, in my humble opinion were 100% impartial, they were probably the best set of judges I have ever seen in the US in maintaining impartiality.
I never saw one example of what I would describe as bias, I saw mistakes made by the judges but hey, we all make them and I could not and would not attribute any of those mistakes to bias.

However, I will say this much, the judges, as I said were 100% impartial, but the problem lies with the fact, that any team who 'push the limit's' are more liable to get away with stuff than those who are merely on the receiving end.

The guy who decides to play on is mobile and therefore harder to monitor whereas the guy sitting behind the bunker is static and easier to observe, herein lies the reason why anybody deciding to 'play on' generally gets away with it.
Now, the US received more penalties than any other nation and rightly so, they merely played the way they did and made the professional decision to 'let the judges sort it out'.
This stance provided a hotbed of discontent for other nations who played against them and some teams handled that problem better than others.
Though I will say, the Swedes played outstanding and were really the only team to get near the Yanks but a series of contentious decisions against them saw them withdraw from the tournament in protest.
But once again, this was not down to judging bias, rather it was because of just not seeing what happened.


I will also add however, the best team won, and they were the best team by far, make no mistake about that and this X-Ball tournament has made me rethink my assessment of Russian / US relative abilities.
The Yanks were a class above anybody else there and it showed in every game they played.

But their victory, in my mind at least, is remembered with a bitter sweet recollection, they really did not have to do any of that **** they did, they just need to get on with showing the world their outstanding abilities, which we all appreciate instead of indulging in **** like bonus balling and playing on so much.
Nuff said on my part I think !
Robbo
 

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
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Great! Was already embarrassed...

over my fellow countrymen. The earlier reports made it easy to think there might have been bias. You cleared that one up brilliantly for me. I think I can visualize it now.

I wonder if more refs on the field--all of whom are trained for the close, quick situations--wouldn't fix this. It all points back to PRO. We need to get professional reffing going. Nice poll going on about that right now.

The teams that judge the NPPL and Millennium events are almost all highly competent judges. The problem comes in organizing, motivating and supervising this talent to perform optimally as judging teams.

How can we improve what we got (team reffing for points) while we try to get a ref corp going?

A suggestion for X-ball: a player who is penalized 3 times for playing on is pulled from the tournament. Then maybe the players will learn to quit shooting after they know they're hit.

What do you think, or are the rules already something like that?
 

Matski

SO hot right now
Aug 8, 2001
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However, I will say this much, the judges, as I said were 100% impartial, but the problem lies with the fact, that any team who 'push the limit's' are more liable to get away with stuff than those who are merely on the receiving end.

The guy who decides to play on is mobile and therefore harder to monitor whereas the guy sitting behind the bunker is static and easier to observe, herein lies the reason why anybody deciding to 'play on' generally gets away with it.

Robbo [/B]


AMEN! Similar to whatever I have been rambling on about in that 'will a euro team ever win nppl' thread.....Many of the top US teams wanna win, win and win some more and who can blame them!?
There is a growing miss-conception however that US teams cheat to win and that is far from true. They play to win and to play the most aggressive moves you sometimes have to push the boundries. The thing that seperates them from us is the fact that not only do they have well learnt skill, which makes them better players overall, but they can judge when they are about to overstep the line, which is why they dont always get penalised for something that a spectator may deem 'playing on'. This style and attitude makes them particularly powerful contenders in the fast paced X-ball format, which they have just proven!
Just a thought though, why not, instead of penalising teams, reward teams who can play through a tournament with few or no penalty points? In other words, make the concequences of not being rewarded for fair play very harsh in terms of points when it comes to making the semis.
The long-term result of this kinda thing though, in my mind, would just be less aggressive, boring paintball games which fail to keep the joe public spectator interested! Theres also that whole bull**** arguement about 'what is playing on'.....kinda killed my own idea really...


This whole fair play thing has been done so many times, no need to remind me:rolleyes: but hey I have to throw in my point of view cos people dont understand the difference, dont like it kiss my ass:cool:
 

Micah

New Member
I hate to say this ... well ... no I don't ... I just don't want anyone to get too mad at me ...

I think X-Ball was rigged. How do you buy a Tourney? Put Most of the refs on one side of the field. That and the penalties were subjective so when the Americans got a penalty it was relatively short where as the Russians penalties seemed to be more often and longer. This made them more frusterated thus they got more penalties.

I'm just going to stop right there. I could say more but I just don't see the point.

-Micah
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
playing with a pump and smokin' crack--

Originally posted by Micah
I hate to say this ... well ... no I don't ... I just don't want anyone to get too mad at me ...

I think X-Ball was rigged. How do you buy a Tourney? Put Most of the refs on one side of the field. That and the penalties were subjective so when the Americans got a penalty it was relatively short where as the Russians penalties seemed to be more often and longer. This made them more frusterated thus they got more penalties.

I'm just going to stop right there. I could say more but I just don't see the point.

-Micah
shame on you, Micah.
Virtually all the penalties assessed in the final were 2 minute penalties with the exception of the unsportsmanlike penalty assessed the Russians for cranking up Fraige. (And so what, a guy lost his cool for a couple of seconds--big deal.)
The difficulty reffing the X-Ball field was twofold--the scale of the field and the giant X. Most of disputes or circumstances where one team or another might think they got an unfair call occurred in the center. It was very close quarters and everything happened very fast--hard to get them all right.
The relentlessly aggressive team--regardless of country of origin--was frequently successful in scoring. The design lent itself to 3 or 4 basic breaks with some minor variations and oftentimes the key was the break strategy match-up.
The reffing was solid, certainly better than over at the IAO event, but once again, as has been noted over and over, even the appearance of partiality potentially impugns the integrity of the outcome.
 

Micah

New Member
It's not tat the penaltys were abnormally long (what were the penalties like in their first matchup? I had a game or 2 in that time so I didn't get a chance to watch it) it's that penalties were given out for seemingly nothing. Just from my perspective anyway.

One thing that really dissapointed me about IAO was that I didn't get the chance to meet nearly all the people that I wanted to, there were just to many ppl and too much going on.

I can see why richmond Italia came up with this format, the paint companies have to love how much paint needs to be shot in one of these matches. It's insane.

-Micah
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Guys, I'll quote what somebody posted on another thread about this topic.

"Reffing X Ball
To help with this thread I thought I would reply. I was one of the reffs that reffed X Ball I was the one in the tower. The Americans did get more penalties then any other team. I keep hearing that we may have been Bias and that bothers me because that is far from the truth and Robbo thanks for the Kind words and it was nice to meet you. Let me explain to you about what we saw and did. The Russians and France played a very clean game and the next game against USA the Russians tryed to play dirty the first Quarter. I think they thought lets beat the Americans to their own game. Well it cost them because we put them in the penalty
box just like everyone else. Once they stopped pushing the limits of the Rules they played 5 on 5 against the Americans and the Americans started to lose. But because of the Americans lead from the first quarter they did not catch up. Let me tell you my team was their to reff and not to make the USA win. The Russians in my oppion could have given the US team a run for their Money but they thought they would get screwed by bias reffing and decided to play on in the first Quarter and they had not played like that until they played the USA Team.

We reffed for 13 hours a Day and I am sure we may have missed one or two calls but we are only Human. We did this for X-Ball and our Sport of Paintball. I think this is what we need for the future of our Sport. We knew as a team that we made History and the one thing we did not want to do is screw it up and reff bad or bias. Oh by the way we hate reffing. I think we did the best job we could and I am sorry that some may think we screwed up. I hope we can come up with a solution with our nations being able to trust each other. I have heard about the past but maybe it is time to change and Unite as Paintball Players and I feel My team has helped start that by providing unbias reffing."

This comes from a guy called Rick Hartman, who plays for team Nasty, and as you figured out by now, they reffed X-ball.
First of all I'd like to thank Rick for coming forward to give his side of the story. I think it's cool to know that some Americans are really impressed with the way some of the Euro teams played, particularly the Russians, who, had they stuck to their own game, might just have walked away with the trophy.
I'll take Robbo's word for it when he says that there is still a gap between the quality of the Russians and the Americans. I was not at the IAO, so I can't comment. But personally, from what I've seen I don't see this gap. The way the Russians play has impressed me more than the way any American team I've seen play. But that just might be the machine like way they play, which is something I love watching.

As far as the reffing is concerned, I have this to say.
Yes, the Americans are a people who, on avarage (so forgive me for using a generalisation) are very proud of their country. I do not know any other country that is as chauvinistic as they are. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I'll leave somebody else to decide. The avarage American loves winning. Only winners get remembered. But do they have a win at all costs mentality? No, not always. As far as countries go, the US is considered one of the 'decent ones', just like most Western European countries. Meaning they have a set of morals and values very similar to eachother. After all, a huge proportion of the people in the US hails from European lineage.
So yes, they love to see 'their' team win, but does that mean that there has been this collective conscious or subconscious decision to ensure that their team wins at all costs? No. Like I said, Americans have the same morals as Europeans. They know when they're doing something that just ain't right. Sure, there will be the occasional ******* who just doesn't give a f**k, but you get those in Europe too.
If you are going to 'attack' the refs, attack their quality. After all, there is very little training for refs at the moment. Be constructive, attack the performance, not the person. When you feel the need to say they are biased, make sure you bring some heavy duty ammo, because then you are no longer talking about performance, but about someone's personal integrity. In that case you'd better be damn sure of yourself and have plenty of proof, otherwise you are the *******, not they...


Soapbox anyone?
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
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Originally posted by Micah
I hate to say this ... well ... no I don't ... I just don't want anyone to get too mad at me ...
I think X-Ball was rigged. How do you buy a Tourney? Put Most of the refs on one side of the field. That and the penalties were subjective so when the Americans got a penalty it was relatively short where as the Russians penalties seemed to be more often and longer. This made them more frusterated thus they got more penalties.
I'm just going to stop right there. I could say more but I just don't see the point.
-Micah

Micah, the tournament was not rigged and it's ludicrous to suggest as much.
The US attracted many more penalties than the Russkies and the five minute penalty the Russkies got was for over shooting somebody who the said player felt was over-shooting him (Baca, wasn't it Oli Lang and not Fraige ? ).
But to come back to the point of tournament rigging, I want you to ponder this, Richmond Italia is Canadian and would never in a million years rig a tournament where the Canadians were winners let alone the Yanks.
I was in the control tower for the final match between the Russians and the US along with Richmond and a few others and you can take my word for the it, there was no way this tournament was rigged !!!!!
Robbo