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UK Paintball Pt 2

Dark Warrior

www.paintballscene.co.uk
Nov 28, 2002
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I have been saying this for quite a while now
The paintball community is always divided into these groups

Woods Ballers
Rec-ballers
Tournament Players

The trouble is (as Robbo, I believe, has implied) we all seem to believe that rec ballers are only woodsballers with their own kit
Recreational players actually covers covers woodballers with kit and most of what we perceive as the tournament scene.

The true split should be
Woodland Players
Recreational Woodland Players
Recreational Tournament Players (>90% of the Tournament scene)
Tournament Players (consisting the major UK international playing teams and a couple of others)
 

BBS

Toooo old to care.
Jan 28, 2005
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Originally posted by Dark Warrior
I have been saying this for quite a while now
The paintball community is always divided into these groups

Woods Ballers
Rec-ballers
Tournament Players

The trouble is (as Robbo, I believe, has implied) we all seem to believe that rec ballers are only woodsballers with their own kit
Recreational players actually covers covers woodballers with kit and most of what we perceive as the tournament scene.

The true split should be
Woodland Players
Recreational Woodland Players
Recreational Tournament Players (>90% of the Tournament scene)
Tournament Players (consisting the major UK international playing teams and a couple of others)
Which would seem a truer reflection of britball in general.
 

Iron Lions - Ed

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Oct 16, 2003
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Having recognised there are two breeds of tournament player. Casual and "Serious" we need to find a way to filter out the serious players/teams from the rest so they can play against each other and then train to improve.

As discussed in this thread, one option is to provide more walk on events so less casual players make it to the tournament scene making a better concentartion of serious players and thus hopefully driving standards up. This will take time and investment and requires lots of site owners to follow the lead of the few.

Another option that would need a smaller number of "visionaries" to buy in would be for couple of tournament organisers to work towards this same goal of filtering out casual players. Perhaps they could place filters in the way of casual players to seperate them out? e.g player must be registered to play higher divsions.

I'm sure there are other filters that can be used and will leave you guys to try and come up with some.
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Jul 9, 2001
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Pete:

Why should the site owners make the changes you suggest?

Why should "business men" that get persuaded to start paintball businesses do it?

Unless there is a clearly defined increase in revenue for these people to see, they have absolutely no reason to do what you think they should be doing - because bottom line is, if it does not increase their business significantly, it is a waste of time to them.

Site owners are not inclined to "do their part for Brit paintball" - except for the few that also happens to love the SPORT (like Craig, Sid, etc.).... everyone else don't care what you or any other tournament player think they should be doing - they are looking at their bottom line, and no further.

Talking about what should be is nice enough - and I fully agree with everything you say.... but as long as you are not coming up with suggestions that clearly demonstrates a significant increase in revenue for site owners - nothing will come of it.

I honestly think, if you are about to invest time in making changes in british paintball, your first order of business should be to come up with ways to demonstrate to site owners, that they are missing out on a business opportunity.... because for most of them, that is the only thing that will bring about a change.

:)

Nick
 

niax

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Feb 8, 2005
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it's been said before and i'll say it again, stepping on people's toes can result in a lot of angry people, humans naturally don't like changes, especially when they like something - although if there is an insentive to change, the process tends to be less painful for the person treading on the toes and those who's toes are being stepped on.
if you want site owners to listen and help you in your campaign to change british paintball, there has to be something in there for them, a profit increase for example


therefore, if you want site owners to push rec-ball, encourage customers to come back and rent on rec-ball days and get into a mid-ground which is missing in UK paintball - you need to colaborate with site owners and others to create the midground - which MUST be enticing from a business point of view, for mr owner to take it up

(please note that i have generalised, and i appologise if anything i have said hasn't made sence - it's too late, but i wanted to say this before i forgot it)
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Nick - Niax This one reply will answer you both, Niax I don't know you (well I don’t think I do) but Nick knows well enough I do not suffer fools gladly, I don’t like greedy people and I ain’t got much time for what I would classify as our average Del Boy site owner if I am looking toward him to develop our sport.

As far as creating an incentive for these site owners (I’m amazed they can’t work it out for themselves) and spelling it out for them, well here goes :-
Now before I launch into what should be done ( a lot of which are not uniquely my ideas) I would remind people and especially our site owners that Paintball begun in the US and as such, we have a tried and tested model of business behaviours to learn from.
Now whilst the sheer number of sites out there in the US dwarfs our own, the actual number of people who attend each site is not that dissimilar from our own.

As soon as we appreciate that we can begin to see that if those guys in the US are developing the sport in the way that it should be done AND making money, then surely this must be the way to go.
Well you’d think…..
Nah, our guys ignore that model in preference to their own much more sophisticated business model (obviously learned from the Cambridge Business College of Advanced Education) of ‘Stuffing ten pound notes in ya back pocket’…nod, nod wink, wink…

The Americans develop their business by opening up options, they do this by (as Nick suggested) having an equipment outlet and also having paintball magazines available, Sup’ Air fields and walk on facilities.
At a very basic level, it opens up the possibility of the average rental of at least becoming aware of a sport outside the woodland game.

Our average visitor to the site is what I would call an ‘occasional’, not really into our sport but it’s fun to play every now and then, and if you think about it, paintball is quite expensive at the rental level if you wanna play frequently.
I am suggesting if we educate these rentals into the ‘other’ side of paintball whether it be walk-ons or tournament then we will stimulate interest that is otherwise not there.

Once we achieve this we then begin to change the face of the customer base from an ‘occasional’ rental into a more regular enthusiast and instead of turning up down the site once every six months he is gonna wanna play more regularly and if he’s got that playing option available (at an affordable cost) he is gonna use it.
Now surely I don’t have to explain any more guys as to how to turn this situation into greenbacks….

Now I wanna make something clear here, there are site owners out there who do try and promote our sport at other levels but these are few and far between and whatever any other site owner may say, whatever they may say, we cannot argue about the state we are in.....

We certainly didn’t get into this state by having the majority of our site owners working with the professional / developmental type ethic I am suggesting and so any site owner can say what he frikkin likes in a knee jerk defence of their business practices but the facts of the matter are, Brit paintball sucks and it has everything to do with the options that are available to rentals, the American model shows us this to be irrefutably true.
The next logical question has to be why don't we emulate it.
And just as I identified our tournament demographic as being inappropriate if we look toward them to produce quality players and teams, then I am now saying the average site owner we have is also the wrong demographic in that we can't look toward them to produce responsible development of our sport.

I wish we had a lot more Sid’s down here in the UK because that guy lives and breathes paintball, he uses the American blueprint as a guide, he sees the sense in it all but doesn’t have the customer base to facilitate what he so believes in, what a tragic irony that is.....:rolleyes:

And Niax, as for stepping on these people’s toes and upsetting them……bov’d ..:rolleyes:
 

Nick Brockdorff

New Member
Jul 9, 2001
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Pete:

I honestly think there are very few areas in all of Europe, where you can "just" copy the SC Village model - and make it work.

Problem is turnover.

For a very large site - like for instance SC Village - the model works because they get so many players each weekend, that it is a question of many little streams making a river (quite a large one - almost a delta :D).

That can't "just" be transferred to 99% of the rental sites in Europe, because they get a lot fewer players on an average weekend.

Well - it COULD be transferred - but it would hurt the business for the site owner..... let me explain:

Let's use "Site X" as an example here.

Site X gets 400 rental customers on an average weekend
Site X is a woodland site and runs semiautomatic rental guns on air.
Site X does not currently run walk on games on a grand scale.

Now - to start running walk on games, Site X needs to invest in:

- Preparing an area for an arena type field
- Buy an inflatable field

Then - to run walk on games, they needed:

- To advertise it
- To have staff prepare for it (field setup, etc.)
- To have staff on hand to run it
- To have staff on hand to clean up after (field take down, etc.)

And - what would they get for all their troubles and investment?

On a good weekend, 20-30 players that show up and play.

Now, while that is nowhere near enough to cover the investment... that is not the worst of it....

...the worst of it is, that word will start to get around, and rental customers will start to wonder why the have to pay so much more to play at the same place..... we as players may view that as a positive - but it is not for the site owner... it hurts his business.

And that is the big problem for any site owner - how to make "converts" as profitable as rental customers... because you have to realise a site does not just loose one rental customer when they convert him to walk on - they loose a whole group... because usually the obvious converts, are those that do the work to get their group to play.

So - MORE is needed that the little you can earn on paint sales at a marginal revenue and a small walk on fee.

As I have said earlier - there are two possibilities:

- Industry providing a service that allows sites to earn money on selling equipment (without having to take the risk of investing in stock)
- Reball

Without one of those two in place, no site can really earn money doing walk on games in a structured wau in Europe.

Nick
 

niax

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Feb 8, 2005
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robbo, i don't really know you either, but i must admit that that was a really good reply, you clearly care for the sport and have a great deal more experience at the recball level than me (ignoring tornaments, because i have no experience there what so ever)
seeing as i started taking paintball as a sport more recently than you, i think i can provide a different view, compaired to your first year.
Taking the sport more seriously, evolving from renting to going to walkons was quite a hectic affair for me - i personally had very little experience at paintball when i decided to make the jump, i had only been to 2 or 3 rental days before i made my choice to be more dedicated and start going to walkons, sure forums like this one and other sites gave me an insight on how walkons work and what to expect, but i really had no clue what on earth i was doing - i wasn't even aware what a walkon was before i decided to become more serious - i had been to my favorate site once or twice and nobody had mentioned walkons or talked about "sure, if you want to become more serious ...." it was only through looking through the site's website, planning another rental day, that i found the walkon section and then, so on and so forth, i found P8ntballer and other sites like it.

This experience was rather strange, i had to dig for information, and (speaking generally) most people don't like having to do it - if say, at the end of a day, mr site owner said something like "if you guys want to take paintball more seriously, we hold a walkon once a month" and maybe offered a reduced rental cost for those that want to take it further, we might have a growth in the recball area and let it be a sort of growth period where they can become great players - i myself have seen this in people i have introduced into walkons, they develop far faster than they did at rental days and a few people i know have said that i'm also improving - but we still have a long way to go


anyway, that's my story and view - i'm sure someone with more experience will have a different view on the matter at hand, and probably could explain this better than i have
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Nick, you cannot under any circumstances use SC Village as the average site to be compared to ours because the average site in the US is nowhere near SC in terms of turnover of monies or player.
And, my post actually acknowledges the fact site owners need to create retail outlets as part of the program.

The expenses you mention that are required to set up tihs new program are in no way prohibitive if you look at the true expense of setting up, these are minimal investment costs.

As for your assertion that income generated could 'nowhere near' cover the investment costs, this ain't right, it just ain't right and if you wanna argue this point , you are on yer own mate coz I'm not gona get dragged into a convoluted debate re degree of expenditure.

And as for the problem you foresee of rentals playing alongside walk ons and getting pissed, this is another red herring because 'occasional' players ain't gonna be bothered and will obviously appreciiate the manifest differences of guys running around with their own kit etc
And for those who are not 'occasional' it will just make them want to play rec more.
And the whole premise for this transition I am advocating is based upon the notion that to convert a rental is to create the need in him / her to play more times than they would if they waren't a convert .
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
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448
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www.p8ntballer.com
Originally posted by niax
robbo, i don't really know you either, but i must admit that that was a really good reply, you clearly care for the sport and have a great deal more experience at the recball level than me (ignoring tornaments...............................

........................... view - i'm sure someone with more experience will have a different view on the matter at hand, and probably could explain this better than i have

Niax, your post perfectly illustrates the points I have been making about rental player's awareness and what they have to do to find out how they can become more serious and this is a 100% emergent property of our site owner's policy of parochial shortsightedness.