Trigger Bounce Redux..... Rules anyone?

[Walker (Nitro)]

I wrote this message in reply to another post, but it seems like many people have fallen victim to trigger bounce on thier markers this weekend. I have put it in a new thread hoping that people will explain the following:

What exactly qualifies as trigger bounce, and dont say more than 1 shot per trigger pull i aint soft....

Where is the line between Bounce/Fanning/Double tapping? as they all rack off silly streams of paint...

I am writing this in relation to an incident that happened to regarding the somewhat over-zealous marshals on the SPLATCH field.

heres my pathetic story:

During our first game of the sunday club against a team that shall remain nameless, I got pulled off the field AFTER the game had finished, this was due to a call by the opposition after some pretty serious double tapping with added Halo action (E-Blades are f-ing quick.....right) to check my gun. I can only put this down to him ****ting himself at the shear volume of paint coming his way. So anyway, after the game had finished the marshal comes upto me and says "can i check your gun player, you were firing rather quick in that game" which i oblige to and feel confident that he will just put it down to me being able to fire a gun quickly. So away he fires holding the gun perfectly still, and pulling the trigger at the slowest pace possible after about Ten, yes TEN attempts manages to make the gun bounce.
Now, a cocker has a certain amount of momentum yes? because of the back block and what not, But you give me virtually any gun and i bet i could get it to bounce!
This gun had been tested over the previous two days in most of the games, and then in one game some wise guy manages to get it to bounce twice after about ten attempts! then as he realises he might be onto something, cruises over to the ultimate and lets him have a go, same thing happens. He gets it to bounce after about Ten attempts of really trying, and i mean REALLY trying, i.e pulling the trigger as slowly as possible (Lets be honest, am i gonna sit there and try and pull the trigger really slowly to maybe get a stream of three paintballs by pulling the trigger once).
It was as if they revelled in it, kinda like "Yes! we get to bust some guy for having a gun that bounced once!" And to make things worse the team we beat start fishin for excuses and askin the marshals for penalty points. In hindsight i was thinking to myself, i should have asked for the other team to have there guns checked!
I had a Matrix once, i could get the thing to fire by hitting it on the back-plate! and once you had a rythym going on the trigger you could take your hands away and it would carry on firing by its own recoil! Now THATS bounce!

I was mighty peeved at the marshals attitiude, and the other teams attitude towards the incident. Thats my tuppence, now i await the return fire with great anxiety..

 

[IanC]

The line between bounce / fanning / double tapping is that they are different things.

Bounce is a technical aspect of a markers operation, where one trigger pull causes 2 or more balls to be fired. Basically a gun that is not firing in semi-auto mode. And legally if its not semi-auto then the only thing it can be is fully auto. i.e. ILLEGAL!

Fanning and double tapping are methods of pulling the trigger. You are allowed to pull the trigger however you like, with whatever combination of fingers, toes etc. that you like.

You are never pulled for fanning or walking. You are pulled for the way your gun is setup.

Laterz

Ian

 

[Walker (Nitro)]

I know what you are saying, and i know the diffeences between the two, but i can fire more BPS by double tapping than trying to get it to bounce or by fanning!!!!!!

 

[Tom Allen]

Maybe this is flying in the face of the current rules, or interpretation of the rules. But if you pull the trigger in to the point where it fires, the gun then recoils, and the microswitch or firing mechanism resets without any further movement of your finger, then, when the gun after its recoil, returns to the original position, presses against your finger and fires again, surely this is two completely different presses of the trigger, not bounce.

Should there be some better method of checking for trigger bounce, (which in my view, is the electronic circuit creating repeatable switching of the trigger mechanism, independent of any mechanical jarring of the trigger)

It could be possible to manufacture a device which could be clamped to the trigger guard and a screw could be wound in to operate the trigger. This would remove any mechanical jarring from the recoil of the gun effecting the check procedure on the trigger.

To do this precise checking by hand, is not accurate enough to ascertain true trigger bounce from the gun.

This is such an emotive and dambing thing to be accused of in a game, something should be done to improve the accuracy of this checking procedure, after all we're spending a lot of money out there guys, lets get it sorted.

 

[IanC]

Toma, it is trigger bounce as the guns recoil bounces the trigger against your finger and fires again. Your finger only moves once.

As for clamping the guns, this would establish that the gun is not firing in fully auto, but would cause a gun that does bounce to behave as though it did not.

 

[brian]

Ahem!!

Walker,none of our team RED HEAT said anything to the marshals about your gun,the marshal in questionbrought up the subject all by himself,under his own suspicions,i,m not really that bothered anyway as you guys won fair and square!and any gun can bounce,just depends on how far you throw it!!.....no probs with you guys,just a bit of teddie throwing!(i was just glad to make the sunday club!)c u around......Brian.....shirt blagger supreme!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MrCosworth -=HypnotizeSweden=-]

I can tell one thing.. Its impossible to say that a marker bounces when fired in full speed. No one can actually judge how fast the player is tapping. Its all about trigger setups.. And thats why you test the marker "one pull - one shot" If you start to juggle the trigger around the on/off click of the switch of course it will shoot many times cause its many pulls.

Testing markers can be done if you use the recommendation by the millenniumboard. shoot a burst, pull trigger slowly back untill it fires hold trigger there and see if it goes full auto or shoot bursts.. I mean if it sometimes manage to shoot 2 balls can be a shaky finger cause the on/off travel is VERY short.

I think personally that some take TB too seriously.. Ok if a marker shoot 6ball strings as you touch the trigger, but 2-3 balls in like ten attempts can be just anything.

I was reffing at JOY and i tested a matrix that shot like 6-7 balls when trigger was pulled and held at "activationpoint" All i told him was to fix it, cause i know he dont shoot like that in the games anyway, so why get caught in test?


Walker.. your story is very much like our case.

Whatever.. nothing to be done to change anything now, so look forward to next years millenniums and hope people have learned...


Cheers

Mikko Team Hypnotize

 

[Matski]

I saw soooo many elblado's bouncing all weekend, if someone can fire 16bps with 1 finger then their either on a diet of speed and redbull or they have trigger bounce.
Would a minimum pull length, say 1.5mm put a stop to most trigger bounce cases?....

 

[jahlad]

as walker has already said it is possible to make ANY marker fire by simply holding the trigger in the right place and allowing the recoil of the moving parts to bounce the weight of the marker off your finger

but what everyone seem to miss is that is NOT trigger bounce,

trigger bounce is caused by a fault in the switch which will cause the contacts of the switch to bounce off each other and fire more than one shot in a single pull of the trigger.

in the rules full auto markers are not allowed ie. it is not allowed to hold the trigger back fully depressed and fire full auto, BUT if the trigger activation point is not set at the latest point in the pull most markers only fire once in a single pull.

what causes problems is people have very little after travel in their trigger which makes it very easy to hold the activation point....all you need to do to reduce it is set your trigger with more after pull....BUT again it is still poss to hold the activation point if you know how to do it

my 2p

 

[Tom Allen]

Ian, i can see the point you're making, if a finger is held stationary and the gun fires from this point, then recoils away from the finger and returns to the same finger, then fires again, then yes the finger has'nt moved, but the milleniun rule 11.3 says :

A trigger pull requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle.

This happens if you allow the recoil to refire the gun.

I would have thought this trigger bounce rule was brought in to stop the guns that go fully auto when triggered, i feel that this rule is being abused to exclude the situation that i have mentioned.