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TJ, this is why your K2 argument holds no weight...

repairman

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Missy Q

I will take what you said in and challenge your theory. BE is a large 800 pound Gorilla who has done a lot for the sport. They have put the products on the shelves of the largest retailer in the world. The volume of Walmart is huge and when Walmart speaks BE jumps and they jump as high as Walmart asks. When you have a corporation that makes up well over half of your companies sales you tend to do this. Most companies would follow the same suit. I am not discounting this in their projected numbers; But you have have created your own eventual demise.

So now we are in an economic state to which some might say is the current establishments creation (debate for another forum)
and Walmart numbers are down. Well now that you have turned most of your business to rely on Walmart your in a worse situation. You have left the traditional market to your competition which might of helped with higher margins to off set the Walmart colapse.

This again is not some plea to have BE sponsor a bunch of teams.
Dynasty and XSV are 2 unique entities they don't have the typical connect to stores or fields as the traditional teams do out there.
Most sponsorship as you are definitely aware of is because some store or field has a team and purchases a certain volume from a particular manufacture. That Manufacture want to maintain the sales so they sponsor the retailer's teams.

As BE takes away from VL, JT, & WGP to fill Walmart orders they kill the top of there own market which is the highest return on investment. They need to keep their people making and inventing the new products of tomorrow a new spyder clone does not compete against a ION.

By the way I have attended the buyers meetings and believe me BE is the ones making the new product to show to the Walmart guys. Walmart might suggest the packaging but they are not the product makers.

;)
 

shamu

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Originally posted by TJ Lambini
So as I said in tha first place, they need one team head-to-toe, gun, loader, goggle, jersey, tha works... And if Dynasty says no, they walk away wholesale and go to XSV.
If you want return on investment, why bother to sponsor an entire team head to toe? If it's my money, I pick three representative players to sponsor/market/promote.

Let's say (hypothetically) we sponsor Tyler Harmon, Max Lundquist and Rich Telford.

You've now covered three different age ranges - young, old, really old (just kidding Rich), three leagues - NXL, Millenium and NPPL with crossover on all three, you cover different play styles and attitudes.

By promoting the individual, you reduce the risk of a single team not performing, you reduce the total cost, and promotion is for the individual and their skills. It doesn't hurt to be on a winning team, but it's removed from winning, removed from what team the player is on.

Most sports marketing is done this way - see football, baseball, skateboarding. Did Nike want us to be "like the Bulls" or be "like Mike"?
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Jul 9, 2001
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Phew - lot going on in this thread :)

Margins vs turnover:

Quite obviously, when you own as renowned brands as JT, WGP and VL - you would be stupid to let those high margin brands go down the crapper in an attempt to save your low margin business....

Personally I think BE/K2 has realised that lately, and I would expect to see the 3 brands be profiled much more exclusively in the future.... and be much more separated from BE/K2s low margin business.

They will do that in 3 ways:

1) Have those brands to be market leaders in terms of quality and innovation.

2) Signing one of the very best teams in paintball to represent them world wide (which will cost a bundle of cash).

3) Signing a number of smaller Pro teams with great impact in their local markets.

I honestly don't think any of the "smaller" Pro teams will suffer - I think the teams that WILL be suffering are the Division 1, 2 and 3 teams that have gotten small sponsorships previously, as they have no real impact on sales and their budgets will be directed upwards.

Sponsoring just one team:

I think most paintball companies realise that doesn't really work - YET.

Paintball may appear to be a global business, with Internet sales becoming more and more significant and coverage of the major leagues becoming more and more wide spread.

BUT - while players players shop globally - they still buy what they see and what they are recommended locally. - It is no accident that MacDev sells most where their sponsored teams are based, Indian Creek where their sponsored teams are based, and so on.

The really big teams like Dynasty and XSV (and then not that many more) have a global impact, because they have fans world wide.... but there are a lot more high end guns out there than just the two those teams shoot, and the manufacturers that are not associated with those two teams will NEED to rely on a more localised representation on top of the Pro teams they have represent them in the big leagues.

Personal sponsorships:

We are getting ahead of ourselves here.... paintball is a team sport, and I can only think of 3 or 4 players in the entire sport, that have a real fan base which would significantly impact sales for a manufacturer... paintball is just not there yet.

The Basketball example is a poor one, because basketball is not a sport with tradition for team sponsorships, and the income stream of an NBA team is structed completely different than that of a paintball team (not talking numbers here - but how income is derived).

Nick
 

Red_Merkin

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Jul 9, 2001
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Again - someone please show me some numbers - until then it's all just assumption
Those numbers would most likely be confidential information, and you probably won't get someone to give you figures on an internet forum, at least someone who's not just speculating.

however if you consider where the bulk of paintball sales go, you'll realise the recballers and casual players who own their own equiptment outnumber the tournament players by a signifigant number.
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Yeah - but Colin - you are making the mistake of thinking that most of the rec market recides with Wall-Mart - which it does not.

A LOT of the recplayers buy either at their local paintball shop or on the Internet..... and a very large number of them want good quality equipment.

Rec is not necessarily equal to you buying your equipment in Wall-Mart.... and rec is not equal to cheap or poor quality equipment.

Obviously Wall-mart represents a large turnover for BE - but I would speculate that in terms of bottomline revenue, Wall-Mart as a customer generates at most 33%.

Again - I'm also just guessing.... but it's logical you need to sell a hell of a lot of $99 packages at Wall-Mart, to generate the same income you do selling 1 Karnivor (to mention 1 high end product)

People are assuming K2 bought JT, WGP and VL to lend quality to the BE products sold at Wall-Mart... I actually think the strategy was instead that they realised they were getting a lot of entry level business - but lacked the high end products when the same customers made their second purchase.

Where they have failed is in their ability to convert their entry level customers to loyal customers, that would make their subsequent purchases with a K2 company also.

Actually I'm amazed that a company like BE has not yet introduced a "return customer scheme", which would give their entry level customers a cash rebate when they "upgraded" their entry level product to a high end one from a BE company.....

Nick
 

Chicago

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The problem ther, Nick, is you're entirely missing the rec players who don't play at organized fields, which is about 50% of the rec market in the US, from what varous field and store owners have told me about the percentage of their Co2 fills and paint sales that go out of the store/field as opposed to being used there. It may be more, depending on how big the wal-mart contingent really is. That market is entirely separate from the paintball any of us likely used to seeing, but just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there or that it's not big. I've (informally) seen the same thing amongst people I know - the people I work with who have kids who play paintball, MOST of them play on their own property.
 

Missy Q

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Jun 8, 2005
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The problem ther, Nick, is you're entirely missing the rec players who don't play at organized fields, which is about 50% of the rec market in the US
Closer to 70% in fact, in the US. Unfortunately Chicago, most people don't see that, and therefore believe that sponsoring a team might have more impact than it actually does, especially where BE is concerned.

Which leads me back to my favorite paintball joke:

How many Pro paintball players does it take to change a light-bulb?

One, he just stands there holding the bulb, and waits for the entire world to revolve around him...


What?
 
Originally posted by Missy Q
Closer to 70% in fact, in the US. Unfortunately Chicago, most people don't see that, and therefore believe that sponsoring a team might have more impact than it actually does, especially where BE is concerned.

Which leads me back to my favorite paintball joke:

How many Pro paintball players does it take to change a light-bulb?

One, he just stands there holding the bulb, and waits for the entire world to revolve around him...


What?
Surely tha correct answer is: None, he makes his sponsor pay for someone to change it for him?
 

Chicago

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Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Surely tha correct answer is: None, he makes his sponsor pay for someone to change it for him?
No, the answer is he verbally berates the ref into calling the light bulb changed.