Thoughts

[Liz]

Well you did seem to be tarring ALL site owners with the same brush, bar the exceptional few. And you know me well enough to realise that I will always try to see the other person's point of view in all discussions, whatever my own position is. How can I be sure I'm right, if I can't be absolutely sure the other person is wrong, and I need to understand where people are coming from and understand why they think that way before I can dismiss what they say.

You are a very well educated, intellegent and erudite person Pete, and your posts are always interesting reading for me. I tend to read them carefully, trying to see not only the words but the intention behind them (I used to earn my living in a way where phraseology and punctuation had to be JUST right to prevent any intentional misinterpretation), but I occasionally switch off my "educated person" mode and read your stuff as though I'm someone who doesn't understand anything about business and just plays paintball as a hobby. And with that persona in place you've tended to come over a little bit that ALL site owners (except those very few named) are greedy sharks who are just in it for the massive short term profits, that all paintball's ills are down to this, and every site owner could as well as should do more for the sport in general. In other words, if I just skim your posts with brains partly switched off they can be seen as a little black & white. I'm just trying to introduce a few shades of grey to the equation.

 

[HERMITT]

I think Sid hit the nail on the head with his post. The percentage of people that wil actually be candidates for tourny convertion is actually relatively small when it comes down to it. This leaves very little room for growth on a relative basis.

The other major issue is that supair is simply not viasble to run punters on. Speak to any site owner that has tried it and they will tell you that the punters dont want to play it. The paint income is less. The scenarios and versatility of that field is significantly less than a woodland field and the maintenance of inflatables is impossible against the almighty ability of the punter to wreck everything!

Woods is the basis for all we have today, take that away and you will have a serious issue. The paint sales that currently force the cost per box to a price we can afford is based solely on the volume that manufacturers sell to the recball market. Paint prices would be forced up and tournies would become even more expensive.

 

[Robbo]

I think I must be getting too cynical Liz because I seem to have less and less time for peopple I view as obstructive in any way to the progress of paintball especially when that obstructionism is borne out of greed or incompetence.
We both know site owners, some of whom are firends of mine but when we really take a cold, dispassionate look at the faciilties the average site owners provide when contrasted with what they did 10 years ago...it beggars belief some of them are still in business.
In fact, a correct interpretation on things would have us believe these sites are surviving in spite of their practices and certainly not because of them..and once again I am referring to the majority here.

I have had a couple of site owners contact me and defend their case but I'm afraid their defence was borne more out of pride than substance because when it came down to it, they couldn't justify simple things like driving around in flash cars and big houses and not even bothering to provide proper food on site.

Anyway Liz, the German example has puilled the wool from my eyes a little in looking to the site owners for anything.
There will be a new breed of a site owner coming, they ain't looking to go chasing round wholesalers trying to get a tenth of a penny knocked off a ball which costs something like two thirds of a penny just so's they can go sell it at 7p.
This new breed of site owners are gonna be looking toward ballers, real ballers to earn a lving.
Real ballers need to train, real ballers need to compete and from what I am witnessing down here in the south east, in Manchester and the SW, things are moving......

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by HERMITT
I think Sid hit the nail on the head with his post. The percentage of people that wil actually be candidates for tourny convertion is actually relatively small when it comes down to it. This leaves very little room for growth on a relative basis.

The other major issue is that supair is simply not viasble to run punters on. Speak to any site owner that has tried it and they will tell you that the punters dont want to play it. The paint income is less. The scenarios and versatility of that field is significantly less than a woodland field and the maintenance of inflatables is impossible against the almighty ability of the punter to wreck everything!

Woods is the basis for all we have today, take that away and you will have a serious issue. The paint sales that currently force the cost per box to a price we can afford is based solely on the volume that manufacturers sell to the recball market. Paint prices would be forced up and tournies would become even more expensive.

Hermitt, re read my initial post, and I'll be sure to tell Dave at Dartford that the 150 people he had down there on Sunday wasn't really worth it .......

 

[HERMITT]

I was down there on sunday and i am sure that dave along with everyone else was more than happy at the way a whole mixture of teams and abilities were all out to improve themselves.

For tournament ballers it was well worth it and it does provide an excellent way to move people into tourny ball.

But i dont think we can just replace punter sites with the type of site dave has at the d7s. Like sid says the 150 players that came down on sunday make up a tiny proportion of those that play paintball in the UK. Tourny ballers do not have anywhere near the financial clout that recballers/punters hold. Supair serves a prupose for us but has no place amongst punters on a purely financial basis.

I am not saying that sites should not have supair available or that they could not do more to encourage the crossover. But to miss out woods would be catastrophic to the UK scene.

The German scene has grown without woods and has fared well, but you simply cannot remove the foundations of the UK scen by using the example of a very different situation as reasoning. They have done it one way due to legal issues, we have done it another. Neither way is wrong in their own situation.

Punter ball (woods) provides us with paint at a price we can afford. The gorwth in punterball is what dropped the price from 10p/ball to what it is now by showing the pharmacueticals it is a worthwhile industry to get involved with and this allowed them to invest in more specific technologies thus allowing us to pay much less. Take away the woods, which is exactly what punters want to play and you take away the people who buy 90% of the paint made.

 

[HERMITT]

What is left in germany is a self sifted bunch of players that doesnt contain the diss placed recballers. I agree with that. But i dont think that the revenue generated from the total number of tourny players would come anywhere near the much greater number of recballers that would be spending if there was a rental scene. Business sense always says cater to the highest and widest demographic to make the most money. Sites will always make the most from punters in woods and i dont ever see that changing.

Getting paintball on TV in Europe will undoubtedly increase the number of people wanting to pay tournies and there will be a need for more sites like dave's but they will continue to operate on the sidelines and will never be the earners that punter sites could be when managed properly.

 

[Robbo]

Hermit, where did I ever suggest we do away with traditional site owners????
I am saying I don't give a **** about them as most of them try to strangle tourney ball.


Look Hermit, if you are gonna come back to me on anything you gotta actually read what I say and NOT put words into my mouth.

Of course the traditional site owners can go along their merry way and good luck luck to them but everything I am advocating here is within the context of competitive Paintball and the revolution I am advocating is in spite of our present field owners and not meant to be a replacement.
The opportunities for a new breed of site owner arise not because of the demise of our existing site owner but because any new breed will have seen the value in setting up and promoting tourney ball..that is all I am saying.

As I see it, any new order of can live quite happily alongside the present order.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by HERMITT
What is left in germany is a self sifted bunch of players that doesnt contain the diss placed recballers. I agree with that. But i dont think that the revenue generated from the total number of tourny players would come anywhere near the much greater number of recballers that would be spending if there was a rental scene. Business sense always says cater to the highest and widest demographic to make the most money. Sites will always make the most from punters in woods and i dont ever see that changing.

Getting paintball on TV in Europe will undoubtedly increase the number of people wanting to pay tournies and there will be a need for more sites like dave's but they will continue to operate on the sidelines and will never be the earners that punter sites could be when managed properly.

I refer you to my previous post, you are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

[HERMITT]

Point taken now i have reread your post.

I think though that TV will be the answer and for that we need a millenium series that is willing to talk with one voice to a tv company that knows what they are doing.

Anybody can see that after just a few dvds they are all the same and provide little insight into the game of paintball. They are just a montage of fast stuff that provide an appetiser but undoubtedly fail to give anything more. We have the opportunity to become involved with a host of media agenicies that would love to take hold of paintball and use it as a vehicle to market their products but ijust dont think that there are enough people who are able to deal with reasonably complex marketing and targeted campaigns aimed not just at the public but at the people with the money.

 

[Markie C]

Originally posted by elsancho
robbo
now im a northerner i played tornies like the series at elsham, that site is just plain badness, its wet, its uneven, its got molehills everywhere. if you tried to slide on that field you'd put your pack out for sure. the set up areas arnt much better either, the only space you get is either in a disused cattle barn or an out-side shed.

the point im getting at is its not very professional is it ? you dont see the likes of the local 5 a side footy teams dodging molehills on a sunday do you ?

and its not just the elsham site thats not up to scratch the northern quarter is vertually on a sewage plant for fu*k sake and and uttox... is there actually grass on that field ??

the location of the sites are an issue aswell, u have to go rite out into the sticks to find the damn things, to promote a sport you need to put it in a place where it can been seen by many others. having a torni in the middle of no where wont be seen by any passing trade. having a torni at a well established area/public area is where it needs to be at.
rant over.
peace

First thing we are no ware near a sewage site unless you call the river bollin one ( Its not the med buts its no sewage site ether)

And we don't hold tournaments all we are is a training ground for players and to help newbies to try and get into the sport.

Its not the best place in the world but we try to make it as good as we can with the re cores we have (mainly my back pocket )

If you are trying to compare us with the states have you seen some of the places they have over there.

They are in the dessert when xsv came over they said how good are place was and how much they couldn't wait to play there because they don't get to train on grass that often.

I take your comments on board we are always looking for some ware else to make our training site better because its all about the players no players no site, we are in the processes of moving to the top of the hill to a bigger place.

but we all know how the local council view paintball and the players so its hard finding some ware that is gold.

peace