The Thursday Poll: NPPL Gun Rule Changes

[Gyroscope]

Look, clearly we both accepted $100 as a hypothetical price- we both cited it. It seems useful because it is, as an example, significant but not crippling.

To my knowledge, this is the first mention I have made of bands... but I will say that whichever head on the body is responsible for them, and whether or not they draw in more spectators, they also are a distraction from paintball.

I have played in and supported the NPPL since the split. I think it is the better series in many ways, but pretending that everything associated with the series is perfect, or that it is heresy to criticize it, is the sort of stupid dishonesty with oneself that leads to invasions of Iraq. Not that I think that PP or the NPPL would continence such a course of action... unless those Sunnis start harping on the lack of fruit or insufficient supply of drinking water at recent events.

But I digress. Earlier, I criticized this poll for including two options that were a no-brainer. The two options were: do you want solution X for free, or do you want to pay a lot of money for it? You started abusing people for picking the free option. Well, given the choice, people won't pay. Given no choice, they might. Also, I think you exagerated the cost of cheater boards to emphasize how ludicrous you thought it was to pay for them but not for a solution. I offered my thoughts on why people might be happier to pay to cheat but not to solve the problem.

As far as needing an "out", clearly the NPPL doesn't; this year they appeared to pretend the problem wasn't there and insisted that claiming 1 shot, one pull was the answer. Well, people are breaking that rule every tournament, and in at least one case, it was obvious in the finals. Having that rule on the books and having it flouted so clearly simply devalues all the rules.

The NPPL is capable of responsiveness to problems, I know. I have personally felt the satisfaction of pointing out problems and seeing solutions emerge. But there is also an impression that things get ignored, and that some problems get swept under the carpet.

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Missy Q
I still find it amusing...

"performance enhancer" - lol. Is that what they are calling them these days? Tadao etc

The Tadao boards do not have any hidden modes that any judge who's ever read a manual couldn't spot, and there are only about 5 boards to keep up with, so it isn't that difficult. This is why I have asked many times if any league has a proper dedicated gun scrutineer. You don't see the guy waving the chequered flag at Nascar getting out a wrench and checking engine sizing. Enforcement of rules is the leagues responsibility, name any other sport (that wants to call itself a sport) that just says "there's a rule book, stick to it please". If that enforcement comes at a cost, then it's bourne by the league as an expense, and probably passed onto the consumer no doubt. If they charge too much the consumer will go elsewhere. Although I'm not aware that PSP or CFOA have charged more because they bought all those PACT timers.

As for your Tadao comment - the one and only commercially available board that has hidden cheats was the advantage chip, which was $250 odd. But that doesn't have selectable ramp, or BPS cap etc, and is also easy enough for a dedicated judge to catch.

Of course "home programmed" boards or team specials that have ramp based on the dwell setting etc and trigger offs, they are (currently) pretty much uncatchable, although I would bet a dedicated gun tech would spot them and even if they can't prove it be able to cause enough hassle it wasn't worth it.

Of course you could go to 15bps and have an enforceable cap in all respects (that's my vote - although I note MissQ's insurance comments)

 

[H]

Originally posted by Beaker
the one and only commercially available board that has hidden cheats was the advantage chip, which was $250 odd. But that doesn't have selectable ramp, or BPS cap etc, and is also easy enough for a dedicated judge to catch.

Not quite true homie

http://www.virtuepaintball.com//index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=4&categoryID=2

 

[Missy Q]

Look, clearly we both accepted $100 as a hypothetical price- we both cited it. It seems useful because it is, as an example, significant but not crippling.

we did both cite it, but only because it was the number on the poll. The fact that the number on the poll is a complete and total guess surely devalues any attempt to use the figure in any and all arguments. Personally I see a board costing 35-50 bucks, but to be honest, that is also little more than a slightly more educated guess.

To my knowledge, this is the first mention I have made of bands... but I will say that whichever head on the body is responsible for them, and whether or not they draw in more spectators, they also are a distraction from paintball.

Then perhaps I am just using your post as a means to ask the question 'what do bands have to do with anything?' I don't see what they have to do with gun cheats. They even have very little to do with the NPPL. There may be people that go to the venue to see the bands would doubtless think the paintball is a distraction. I just think its a non-issue as far as paintballers are concerned. There are good reasons that the bands are there. Few people want to travel to watch a paintball event. There are far more people that will travel to watch bands. PP want people to go to the events. I know you understand that part.

I have played in and supported the NPPL since the split. I think it is the better series in many ways, but pretending that everything associated with the series is perfect, or that it is heresy to criticize it, is the sort of stupid dishonesty with oneself that leads to invasions of Iraq. Not that I think that PP or the NPPL would continence such a course of action... unless those Sunnis start harping on the lack of fruit or insufficient supply of drinking water at recent events.

Who's pretending? Me? I don't think so! I do think that making comments about the bands to back up an opinion on gun cheats is lame though. Sorry. And what do fruit and water have to do with it? I don't understand why people throw 'fruit and water' in the NPPL's metaphorical face when trying to make a point. You get fruit and water - big deal. Just appreciate it for what it is, a nice service and one that should have been provided years ago. I am sick of that being used in arguments - 'we don't care about free fruit, we want ramping abolished", etc, what kind of moron would think that giving up the fruit and water would facilitate enforcement of gun rules? Not having a go at you in particular, but you know what I mean?

But I digress. Earlier, I criticized this poll for including two options that were a no-brainer. The two options were: do you want solution X for free, or do you want to pay a lot of money for it? You started abusing people for picking the free option. Well, given the choice, people won't pay. Given no choice, they might. Also, I think you exagerated the cost of cheater boards to emphasize how ludicrous you thought it was to pay for them but not for a solution. I offered my thoughts on why people might be happier to pay to cheat but not to solve the problem.

Abusing? Are you serious? I know a cheater board that sell at $195. I don't know all the cheater boards. Therefore I felt it safe to bracket boards between 175 and 250. If you think I deliberately exaggerated you are wrong. The fact that people are happier to pay to cheat is the problem, not how much they would pay to do it, or not do it. I feel that is an indictment of the paintball populous. Perhaps you think its totally reasonable? Either way that is the fact of the matter and my point.

As far as needing an "out", clearly the NPPL doesn't; this year they appeared to pretend the problem wasn't there and insisted that claiming 1 shot, one pull was the answer. Well, people are breaking that rule every tournament, and in at least one case, it was obvious in the finals. Having that rule on the books and having it flouted so clearly simply devalues all the rules.

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but who's pretending? The NPPL this time? Who devalued the rules? The NPPL again? I beg to differ. One shot one pull isn't 'the answer', its 'the rules'. It wasn't just obvious in the finals, it was obvious in every game I watched. Are you 'pretending' it was only a problem in the finals? Did I twist your words a little?

The NPPL is capable of responsiveness to problems, I know. I have personally felt the satisfaction of pointing out problems and seeing solutions emerge. But there is also an impression that things get ignored, and that some problems get swept under the carpet.

If you feel that the gun-cheat issue is either being ignored or swept under the carpet then you should contact the NPPL and ask what will be done. I can assure you that neither of those things are the case, but doubt that my assurance will be enough for you. After all, I am stupidly dishonest with myself

as for iraq, are you one of those guys that thinks the newly elected 'government' was actually voted for by the people, only 7% of which are registered to vote, most of those being the people that would have voted for that 'government' anyway, and not even all of those showed up at the polls....? Surely not.

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by TheBroz
Not quite true homie

http://www.virtuepaintball.com//index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=4&categoryID=2

Actually Virtue is Advantage, same guys, they set up Virtue to be more of a storefront, so it's still the same thing.

But even with that, you

a) know it's only (currently) for certain gun
b) it's only turned on by a certain input, so any knowledgeable guy who has the time/job to focus on suspect guns can probably spot a behavious pattern.

I actually have one of the chips, have never used it in an event because it's so bloody easy to spot, or at least I think so.

 

[Gyroscope]

I mentioned bands because the additional entertainment provided at NPPL events seems to be like a distraction from the paintball tournament. It is not apparent that the NPPL is getting better at dealing with gun cheats. I am suggesting that the extraneous entertainment takes the focus away from the paintball. It looks like a great deal of focus is placed on attendance and rather less on solving problems with gun cheats.

I understand that the idea is to get more people there. I question whether bring people in for one thing leads to them getting interested in something else. If people do indeed travel to a NPPL event for the concert, I don't think it is likely that they will watch the paintball.

I think that you are a wee bit sensitive about any critique of the NPPL. I could possibly hunt up examples, but I don't care enough about persuading you to back it up with that sort of research. So feel free to disregard that.

The devaluation of rules comes in making rules that are not enforced well. I suppose that players could be blamed with some justice, but we do have referees out there enforcing most rules quite well. I do not feel that the NPPL enforces gun rules effectively. Hopefully I'll see that change. I do think that there is some 'head in the sand' type behavior in having a rule and failing to enforce it.

The Iraq thing: I was trying to imply that rejecting criticism out of hand and only focusing on consenting points of view leads one to do foolish things like invading Iraq. It was meant to be a grim/ humorous warning about the importance of listening to dissent. So no, I don't suppose I am "one of those guys". Obviously, that's another whole can of worms that has even less to do with the matter of gun rules than the entertainment included in tournaments.

 

[Missy Q]

mentioned bands because the additional entertainment provided at NPPL events seems to be like a distraction from the paintball tournament. It is not apparent that the NPPL is getting better at dealing with gun cheats. I am suggesting that the extraneous entertainment takes the focus away from the paintball. It looks like a great deal of focus is placed on attendance and rather less on solving problems with gun cheats.

I would answer that by saying that the bands are a PP thing. PP are a promotions company and therefore they are promoting - quite well it would seem...
The gun cheat issue has not been 'promoted' by PP, but then why would it be? Its not going to drive traffic, which is the point of the bands and part of PP's campaign.

I understand that the idea is to get more people there. I question whether bring people in for one thing leads to them getting interested in something else. If people do indeed travel to a NPPL event for the concert, I don't think it is likely that they will watch the paintball.

If you have a large public attendance this helps with sponsorships. That's the reasoning. PP don't care if they watch the paintball. Its the collective demographic and having enough people there for people to see an opportunity to reach their target audience.

The devaluation of rules comes in making rules that are not enforced well. I suppose that players could be blamed with some justice, but we do have referees out there enforcing most rules quite well. I do not feel that the NPPL enforces gun rules effectively. Hopefully I'll see that change. I do think that there is some 'head in the sand' type behavior in having a rule and failing to enforce it.

Everyone knows the rules are out-dated. Its not like the rule came in after the cheats. When the rule was made it was enforcable enough. I don't see anyone claiming the rules are now enforcable, certainly not me. Its whether to change the rules so that they no longer need enforcing (quick), or coming up with a way to enforce them (not so quick). The NPPL chose the 2nd option. No 'head in the sand' stuff is going on. The way to enforce the rules is complicated. If it wasn't, we would not be debating it. Liability issues have stopped the NPPL from taking the PSP route. Alternative routes have taken more time than anyone would have liked. Isn't it as simple as that?

The Iraq thing: I was trying to imply that rejecting criticism out of hand and only focusing on consenting points of view leads one to do foolish things like invading Iraq. It was meant to be a grim/ humorous warning about the importance of listening to dissent. So no, I don't suppose I am "one of those guys". Obviously, that's another whole can of worms that has even less to do with the matter of gun rules than the entertainment included in tournaments.

I get accused of rejecting criticism a lot, and I suppose I can see why that is at times, but as I always stress, I don't like dealing in fantasy. If criticism is leveled at the way things are done I generally ask someone to explain a viable alternative. This is very rarely forthcoming, and so instead of providing the viable alternative it often easier to claim I am oversensitive or overly defensive. As for the Iraq thing, I was also atempting grim humor, and the 'one of those guys' thing was not intended as offensive.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Gyroscope
But there is also an impression that things get ignored, and that some problems get swept under the carpet.

That's TURF buddy, get with the program.
You'd know if NPPL was sweeping the problems under the turf, as they'd create bumps when placed on top of all that nice, flat asphalt.

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Chicago
That's TURF buddy, get with the program.
You'd know if NPPL was sweeping the problems under the turf, as they'd create bumps when placed on top of all that nice, flat asphalt.

That brought me a smile on an otherwise grim and depressing morning of bad news...

Hats off Chi-town

 

[TJ Lambini]

Originally posted by Missy Q
I think it is optimistic to expect 2000 new anti-tamper sealed chips to be ready for HB06 and not have major administrative issues. I would expect the mandated chip to be used firstly in the 18 in the '06 season.

Now that's smart...get tha opinion makers - and tha teams you are showcasing to tha world - to do it first and hope for trickle down.

Good plan.