The Max Master's Controversy

[Baca Loco]

I think he's got a point

Originally posted by rancid
Give him a call. You're a journo as well as the paintball police you know. You know, ask the questions straight.... don't like go in their screaming.

Robbo
Seems to me PGI's coverage wouldn't be complete without some mention of the controversy and a significant number of the mag's regular or occasional readers won't be familiar with the situation so if the particulars are given and then some of the principles are asked for responses (perhaps including some members of the new disciplinary committee) it will serve to help inform the average baller and stimulate further discussion and perhaps influence the whole game for the better.

And you can start screaming after asking the appropriate, well-mannered journalistic-type questions. Best of both worlds, I'd say.

Moo

 

[rancid]

kin el. There's an echo in here.

 

[rockon_1]

Well I hate to be the voice of moderation here (completely clashes with my usual views )but to blame one person for this seems rather judgemental . I am working entirely on what i hear so some of te facts may be way of base but thats why its called speak your brains . It has been almost universally aknowleged that are sport has a fairly rampant problem with cheating and cheating happens in nearly every sport . Now in my opinion a resolution at the captains meeting saying there would be no end of game chronoing was stupid and unsafe but unless there was some serious plot people would have known and could/should have objected to it when it was brought up . Now a serrious problem in paintball is and under the current system always will be reffing and interference of promoters sponsors . Why because unlike other sports the division isnt as clear aka the promoter of one tournament is the captain of a team sponsored by a company . So conflicts of interest can occur quite easily . Now laurent was not at this tourney as a promoter he was there as a captain and hence if a resolution went through at the captains meeting that there would be no end of game chronoing then he problably felt justified in objecting to the penalty points awarded his team for a hot gun that never should have been chronoed .(now the rule change was a mind bogglingly stupid one but I'm not hearing that anyone objected ) . Also you can expect the captain of a team to just sit down and allow an implementation of penalty point against his team for something that technically never should have been caught just because he's also a promoter and a friend/boss with the referee . Now this entire thing should have never come up as the resolution of no gun chronoing at the end of the game should have been laughed at not accepted . Basicly i guess im just saying that it was a bad situation and Laurent and Jean should not be the only one singled out .

*sprays post with flame retardent spray and gets the fire hose ready *

 

[KillerOnion]

Seems pretty clear cut to me, doesn't it to you? I thought that the Maxflow locking rings were allen keyed nowadays to prevent such hanky panky, aren't they? I haven't viewed this year's Millenium rules yet, (mainly because it doesn't look like I'll be over there...unless I start getting $100 tips at work then I might make Campaign) but aren't referees supposed to inspect regs to see that they are locked down sufficiently to prevent adjustment by hand? I know it's in at least one league's rules. At tourneys I've reffed I haven't always checked them every time, but I guess now I certainly will. Seems horrible though to apparently have to be babysitters out there, watching every minute detail to make sure of no misbehaving.

 

[Matski]

The judges on each field, as you know, have a big schedual to get through. If they have to inspect every single gun that comes on the field, players better expect an early start and late finish to each day of the tourney. On top of this, judges cant be expected to have high technical knowledge of every type of marker that comes on the field-you can gun cheat in more ways than the reg.
Its pretty sad that we're at a stage where, like you say, judges have to become "babysitters" but I guess the sport is getting to the stage where teams are striving to find a competitive edge over rivals, even if it means breaking the rules.

Wheres it gonna go though? Are people going to have to start taking blood tests to see how much speed theyve taken?

 

[KillerOnion]

It's not hard at all to check guns for chrono cheating. Most regs have allen key adjusters, and the ones that don't are few, easily recognizable, and well known:

Maxflows -- This very instance, for example. New ones should have allen screws in their adjuster rings...if they don't, get them to put on one that has allen screws or don't let them on the field. Tighten down the screws yourself. This takes maybe 5 seconds.

Uniregs (Black Ice and GenX) -- Have lock down allen screws in plain sight that can be easily inspected in less than 10 seconds. Again, tighten them yourself.

back end of Mags: Same as Unireg, but with a ring around them.

MaxAttack/Conquest: Set screws in the reg face.

AA Raptor: Locking rings, but hey, hardly anyone uses Raptors anymore.

Cockers with the Rex Nelson adjuster: Have a beavertail on and...well, if they cheat with it, take them off the field and castrate them with rusty barbed wire.

Now how hard is that? Anyone that doesn't know that already and/or can't remember that short list and do these simple checks doesn't have any business being a tourney ref, or a ref on any field for that matter.

 

[Matski]

No need to blast with the science here and not knowing all gun checks does not make someone a bad judge.

Do you know how to test an electro marker that has been programmed to increase the velocity of the marker, just by pulling the trigger? It can be done.

How about someone using a cocktail of co2 and air....you cant test for everything, the only way to combat this is to make the penalties so harsh that players are scared to gun cheat.

 

[Robbo]

I think the point is being missed here, I'm not saying that every gun has to be chronoed as it comes off the field !!
I am saying that if judges had the balls or rather the mandate to on-field chronograph like it should be done, then, checking regs etc becomes academic.
But I have yet to go to a tournament where judges consistently chronograph markers on the field, at the moment, there is no real deterrent.
But what the Millennium board did, and I have no idea whose crazy f###ing idea it was, decided in its infinite wisdom, to abandon post-game chronographing.
Now this is inherently dangerous, because if a judge were to suspect a gun was hot as the game finished, should he then be precluded from checking that gun because of some stoopid rule that says he can't ?
R U KIDDIN ME?
This regime is what you guys played under in Germany.
Now did anybody ask us about this, no they did not, did anybody really think thru it's implementation, self-evidently they did not.
And if anybody needs prrof of this rules insanity, look at the Ton Ton's hot guns, not picked up prior, not picked up during, but detected after the game !!
I rest my case !
Nobody is saying you have to chronograph markers at the end of the game all the time but you have to at least have the option !!!!!!!!
Laurent, in Germany, argued against that principle and thus argued against safety and fair play. In my book, there is nothing worse !
The answer to all this is, judges should be mandated to chronograph on field, within reason, as many times as they like.
The rest just falls into place around it !
Robbo

 

[KillerOnion]

Oh, the Shocker piggy cocktail? People stopped using that after it kept blowing up their burst disks, overpressure relief valves, solenoids, and/or Maxflows. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but was STOOOOOOOOPId!!! Oh, the dwell adjustment via board tweaking? Puhleaze. Anyone that does that deserves to blow their valve seals.

 

[Robbo]

People people....

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
Actually you are missing the REAL point (well... one of them at least) !

If the rules are permanently changed, so no post game chronographing goes on (as advocated by Jerry and JM), and the other chrono procedures stay they way they are (player chrono themselves in and judges perform on field chronographing)..... judges will actually never get to check markers for cheat modes, loose locking rings, etc.

The judges will never actually get to shoot the bloody things, let alone hold them !

I - as a player - would NEVER allow a judge to touch my gun pre game (for fear of him breaking a ball or messing something else up)... and I think most players are like that (which I think is understandable and should be respected).

Checking the markers during the game... well that sort of goes to velocity alone... and will NEVER catch the deliberate cheaters, who will be too aware when a judge comes near with a chrono, to ever get caught.

So... post game is the only time to catch the cheats.

The Rules Committees of the Millennium Series and NPPL (or PSP as it were), has now chosen to eliminate post game chronographing.... in the name of FAIRNESS... thereby leaving open a window of opportunity for the deliberate cheats.

- I for one see the irony !

Now... many may say that deliberate cheating with velocity is far fetched.... but I know for a FACT that top Pro teams has done this consistently without ever getting caught.

I will not name names... but I KNOW it for a fact from a player who admitted to me being part of it, when he was with a certain top Pro team.

I think cancelling post game chronographing is one of the worst, and potentially most dangerous descisions ever made in this sport.

THINK AGAIN PROMOTERS... and get your priorities straight.... players should be subject to chronographing anytime from putting on their armband (thus signalling they are ready to play) till they leave the field of play !

Nick

There seems to be an echo in this thread