Hehe, this could run and run...
Buddha :
It could just be how you are saying it and that terms vary in their meanings, but I've got a way different view on it from you m8.
1) Really really wrong. In fact, the Dutch did have a relatively high percentage of collaborators. However, we also had, what was credited by the Allies as the best organised resistance in the world. So there.
Ok I can't be 'really really wrong' if in fact I am (as you suggest) partly right.
I never suggested that the Dutch resistance wasn't a strong force. I'm happy to admit that of all the partisan fighters (Yugoslavia excepted) I consider the Dutch underground to have had the greatest effect. They were one of the very few groups of guerilla fighters who worked well with and were respected by the Allied armed forces.
2) Again, wrong. Yes they were warned, so what?
Um, it allowed them to make full use of their defensive positions? Something not afforded to all the units involved in the defense of Holland.
Plenty of Germans escaped Saint Vith,
They did, I sense confusion here. At the St.Vith / Malmedy x-roads the Germans masascred a bunch of American artillerymen. There were no survivors.
matter of fact, at the end of the Battle of the Bulge, Saint Vith was liberated (again) without too much effort
Yes, and? Actually along with many of the towns involved in the northern part of the 'Battle for the Bulge' in the ardennes they are the towns/villages that were captured and liberated more times in the european theatre than any others. Intersting fact. (well not really I guess).
However, the assault on Saint Vith by the German 5th Panzer Armee caused plenty of casualties on both the American and the German side
It did, but I was attempting to talk about the incident above, my bad for being unclear I guess. *whoops*
The numbers involved at Saint Vith are in the thousands, the Afsluitdijk was defended by a few doz
This is true, but the ratio of defenders to attackers was actually in a very similar range.
Kill ratios of 20 to 1 and up constitute a massacre in my view
Semantics now, you call it a massacre, I wouldn't. Who knows ?!
Wrong again. Yes the 82 took a beating, so did XXX corps. Tanks are **** in a city. That's the reason they went for the rail bridge outside of town, because they were getting their asses handed to them at the road bridge. They later took it after the other bridge was captured. Trust me, I am in regular contact with survivors of the Dutch campaign
XXX corps took a beating at various points on the journey to Elst, Nijmegen included. the point I think I was trying to make was that I think it's 'bigging up' the casualties taken by XXX corps at Nijmegen to suggest that they had similar damage done to them as the 82nd took.
My opinion is that (on paper beforehand) the 82nd had the hardest job of the 4 groups, having to take 3 river objectives and also the high ground at Berg En Dahl.
I'm glad you're in touch with survivors too, you are better placed to meet them of course. they have some truly amazing stories to tell. Went to watch some veterans march from Arnhem to the Museum there and managed to chat to a couple, they were amazing guys.
Hehe, we could do this all day but I guess we could start to bore. Mail or PM if you wanna continue, or reply here and I'll PM back if you want.
It's all good.
Chimp
