The 2005 Penalty Point versus 1:4:1 debate.

[sykesg]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
Just to play Devil's advocate here as there seems to be big bummers club of we love the 141 people

Now, for the record I have preferred the sosta thing in most instances previously but I think Andy has a very good point (about the crowd) and the naughtiness of the top teams under the sosta rule is an interesting argument against its effectiveness. So I am hovering between the two at present...

So here is a situation...

How about when a game is finished, your team lost thanks to a mugging spree that took out your last three men, however, whilst going to sign the game sheet you notice a hit on the oppositions hand/feedneck/whatever and this is acknowledged by the refs.

Now, with the sosta/penalty point rule that player/team will be given -25 penalty points which could put you above them in the days standings and get you another league point for promotion. That is a big deal in a fixed league structure.

What would happen under 1-4-1 rules (and I don't know the answer here as I don't do millenniums etc) in this instance - is it just a case of 'ah well, sorry we missed that'?

If so, it seems here is a major problem with 141's. And weighing up the two I think I would prefer, marginally, the sosta rule.

I think when it is a carnival style one off event a 141 would certainly be the preferred option but in a fixed league structure I am not so sure.

Please check this out but I'm pretty sure that if the team with the guy with a hit is the last one in and there is no-one to 1-4-1 then the loosing team gets an automatic max. Now that's putting things right baby!

 

[shamu]

Originally posted by Intheno
you could take thier first-born child, and train them in private refs camps.

You're thinking too long term there, ITN. Haven't you seen Clockwork Orange or Le Femme Nikita (for you youngsters out there)? Take the offending offender, lock 'em up and brainwash 'em into becoming super refs. Simultaneously improves the reffing talent and punishes those cheeky cheaters, and you'll see results in months instead of years

Seriously though, the player reduction rules (141, 241, 341) should be enough to penalize most infractions. Yes, referees have to be on top of things to make the calls and, yes, sometimes things happen too fast for one referee to make all the right calls, reset players and escort the eliminated players from the field. You see that in many sports that require real-time intervention by the officials (footy, hockey, etc). How about if we introduce instant replay or do-overs?

Adding post-game penalty points is just asking for more post-game arguements, slowing down games and pushing the (usually behind schedule) games back without really addressing the issue. I prefer instant gratification - pull a player off the field as soon as the foul occurs. That also makes it clear to spectators and other players that a penalty was assessed. Or if you prefer, "ha ha, you got busted "

edit to answer Sykes question:

In NPPL, if the last player is pulled as a result of a penaly (141, 241), the other team gets pull and hang. If there aren't enough players left to assess the penalty (last player gets a 141, no one left to pull) the other team gets pull and hang, plus 1 body live for each unassessed penalty (last player gets a 141, other team gets pull, hang plus 1 more live body).

PS - Scutty - hope you were able to get the stink out of that jersey

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by WKD
Or how about then instead of the 1-4-1 rules seeing as most of the time the judges aint got the balls to do it or just arent keeping up with the game.
If a team is caught for any rule infringment and has penalty points deducted from their score why not have the penalty points that were deducted given to the team they infringed against atleast they get punished and also the team they tried to screw gets summat out of it aswell would be even worse for teams that cheated lost the game and the penalty points would then get deducted from their overall total

This is called "swing point" penalties - used to be done years & years ago & worked quite well then

 

[sykesg]

Originally posted by WKD
Or how about then instead of the 1-4-1 rules seeing as most of the time the judges aint got the balls to do it or just arent keeping up with the game.
If a team is caught for any rule infringment and has penalty points deducted from their score why not have the penalty points that were deducted given to the team they infringed against atleast they get punished and also the team they tried to screw gets summat out of it aswell would be even worse for teams that cheated lost the game and the penalty points would then get deducted from their overall total

This could work!


All I see with the current rule is that even if the cheating team do get penalty points and a ban (all after the game has already been won with cheating) the team that lost the game have absolutely no way of getting those lost points back - I would even be happy with a re-play, just a fair crack of the whip.

 

[Red_Merkin]

The 1-4-1 rule (and 3-4-1 for wiping) used in the Millennium Series last year works great. I really don't know why the PA league and Dartford 7s use a different rule book.

The PA League rules suck, there's so many holes in them, and they're kind of redundant considering the Millennium Series rules are complete, and used by players all across europe.

Why someone felt the need to partially re-write the rules for Local British Paintball is beyond me... maybe it's a ego thing or something!

A penalty should deal with the matter on the spot, and a 1-4-1 is easy enough for a ref to call, unless they're a total retard. If the player keeps going, and keeps effecting the game, you just keep adding 1-4-1s! The key to the rule is simplicity, agressive refs, and instant punishments are far superior to penalty points after the game. Kind of like Judge Dredd!

 

[Intheno]

Judge Dredd rocks, he should definitely be a ref!
If Judge Dredd was a ref, all these problems would be solved overnight.

Stalin would also be hella cool, but not as cool as the Ultimate Judge, because Dredd already has mad judging skills.

Judge judy would be crap though, as would Judge Jules, he's fried...

 

[Gyroscope]

And what do Stalin and Dread have in common? Both are supported with GUNS! Give refs their own pistols and let them remove players without having to run over and leave their zones!

 

[Intheno]

now you're being ridiculous.

 

[Gyroscope]

*ring*ring*

Hello? Kettle, this is Pot. You're black.

 

[Chuck]

Judge Dredd..

He's alive and well, calls himself Johan and plays for CD.

141 defo, deal with it there and then.

Chuck