The 2005 Penalty Point versus 1:4:1 debate.

[stongle]

OK so thus far noone likes penalty points.

Ooohhhhhhhhh, feeling for someones ding-a-ling.

 

[HERMITT]

I smell a poll

we need a poll,but only if Russ can post more than once. We wanna give penalty points a fair chance

 

[Ben Frain]

Just to play Devil's advocate here as there seems to be big bummers club of we love the 141 people

Now, for the record I have preferred the sosta thing in most instances previously but I think Andy has a very good point (about the crowd) and the naughtiness of the top teams under the sosta rule is an interesting argument against its effectiveness. So I am hovering between the two at present...

So here is a situation...

How about when a game is finished, your team lost thanks to a mugging spree that took out your last three men, however, whilst going to sign the game sheet you notice a hit on the oppositions hand/feedneck/whatever and this is acknowledged by the refs.

Now, with the sosta/penalty point rule that player/team will be given -25 penalty points which could put you above them in the days standings and get you another league point for promotion. That is a big deal in a fixed league structure.

What would happen under 1-4-1 rules (and I don't know the answer here as I don't do millenniums etc) in this instance - is it just a case of 'ah well, sorry we missed that'?

If so, it seems here is a major problem with 141's. And weighing up the two I think I would prefer, marginally, the sosta rule.

I think when it is a carnival style one off event a 141 would certainly be the preferred option but in a fixed league structure I am not so sure.

 

[Mario]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
How about when a game is finished, your team lost thanks to a mugging spree that took out your last three men, however, whilst going to sign the game sheet you notice a hit on the oppositions hand/feedneck/whatever and this is acknowledged by the refs.

Now, with the sosta/penalty point rule that player/team will be given -25 penalty points which could put you above them in the days standings and get you another league point for promotion. That is a big deal in a fixed league structure.

means ****, the game is over - too late.

why could there not be a mixture?

 

[garycarrot]

I say do both....1-4-1 and give the team penelty points as well.

 

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by Mario
means ****, the game is over - too late.

why could there not be a mixture?

Mmmm I like it; a 141 penalty for rule infractions seen whilst game is in play and a Sosta rule for rule infractions that become apparent after the game is complete.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
Mmmm I like it; a 141 penalty for rule infractions seen whilst game is in play and a Sosta rule for rule infractions that become apparent after the game is complete.

It seems like the choices offered are between what some--more than a few? maybe many?--see as insufficient and practically the PB eviqualent of the nuclear option. The only reason 141's are sometimes seen as not penalty enough is because of the inconsistencies in how and when they are called and the peripheral "damage" that is allowed to accompany the call as if the refs figure, well, I made the call, I'll not worry about the field position exchange or the eliminated player who should still be in play or the guy running upfield during the moemt of chaos around the call.
Certain situations occur so fast it's impossible for the officials, especially a single official, to make the correct call(s) quickly enough so as not to either allow the game altering effect or intrude so drastically on the game that the interference becomes its own problem.
What is called for is clearly defined steps in the measure of the penalty assessed that makes it easier for the ref to make the proper call without his/her "judgment" interfering too much and if you want to bump up the impact on the offending team plug in less Draconian but automatic penalty point assessments.
Then, for instance, your 141 becomes the run-of-the-mill incidental playing on that has no noticed impact on the game's result plus your team takes 10 penalty points whatever the outcome. An incident of playing on that eliminates an opponent or gains field position advantage or whatever merits perhaps a 241 and 25 point penalty and so on.
The calls remain subjective to one degree or another but if aspects of how the call is determined are clearly enumerated and the officials well versed it might deliver improvements overall.

However you figure it there is no getting around the fact some games will simply not be handled very well for whatever reason so no system is going to guarantee a "fair" result every time.

 

[WKD]

Or how about then instead of the 1-4-1 rules seeing as most of the time the judges aint got the balls to do it or just arent keeping up with the game.
If a team is caught for any rule infringment and has penalty points deducted from their score why not have the penalty points that were deducted given to the team they infringed against atleast they get punished and also the team they tried to screw gets summat out of it aswell would be even worse for teams that cheated lost the game and the penalty points would then get deducted from their overall total

 

[Intheno]

you could take thier first-born child, and train them in private refs camps. That way the offenders could still have a one for one, but thier family would be making a real contribution to the future of the sport and therefore balancing out evil with good.
Nobody gets hurt, everyones a winner.
If the offender is a kid with no children, their names are taken and in the future, when thier child reaches the age of 10, they are visited by the Pro ref recruiter and taken for 'training'.
Its a long-term plan, but then the best ones always are!

 

[sykesg]

Originally posted by ascutt
The problem with playing a player down is that it gives the team they are playing against an unfair advantage for no reason at all. That team wasn't cheated against and yet they only have to play against 6 (and therefore more likely to win and score more points than the team that actually had the cheating done against them!!). The 1-4-1, 2-4-1, 3-4-1 rule is direct punishment which puts a pentaly against the offenders and helps the team that was cheated against in the game they were cheated against in!.

what scutty said

Hi M8!