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Steve Davidson on PBChannel

Furby

Naughty Paintball God
Mar 28, 2002
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Norman Park, Georgia
www.thefordreport.com
Oi, Cow

Originally posted by duffistuta
How did Fleetwood Mac spell it?

I rest my case...

Hi Steve, good to have you here - now spill the details about Miami and let me know when Pro Team is going to get some new kit over to us to review?:)
Right after they send me some goodies to review?

Just kidding!
 

steve davidson

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Nick,

I don't see how we can do a side-by-side comparison of my format and X ball as they are both based on my design.

Truthfully, everyone I know who has seen both have said that USPL is better - more action, more intensity, etc.

What x-ball did not utilize (beyond the scoring system which IS simple when watching a game) are:

field is much more viewable from everywhere in the stands
field is much more open and action-oriented
no physical contact in x ball
no 'air time' in x ball
no game stoppages for penalties and, therefore, cheating can still win games.

changes:

1 - USPL was the name of a league - not the format. Since we simply called it 'the uspl's format', that's become the name - but its not the name any longer. we're playing with slammball and several others (bash-a-certain-someone's-head-in-with-a-brick format didn't make the cut...) - but it will have a different name

2. the 'slamming' and using bunkers for trampolines will be in full effect this time around; we've gotten great response from broadcast types to the 'aerials'. a new goggle retention system (not a chin strap) was developed by myself and V-Force specifically for this application, and I had the multi-day headache from testing it to prove it worked. (Formula: find one 350 pound paintball playing sadist, place test subject behind air bunker with goggle in place, have sadist charge and slam air bunker from across the field repeatedly. Results: goggles still attached to head, air bunker torn out of its moorings.)

3. we'll be using teams who are familiar with the format (no learning curve) and who have the benefit of hindsight in knowing how it plays tactically - plus we hope to set the field up for practice runs way in advance. I expect that this will lead to an increase in flag passing, which really opens the game up.

4. we'll be on TV again (informed speculation on my part) and we're dealing with an industry that has already seen a 'spectator friendly' version of paintball and is still looking for something better.

Minor adjustments to field layout, some penalties and a few other issues.

On a patent note: Oops, have to push the CR button temporarily:

CR said: "On the patent issue, I laugh.... Penalties and game divided into periods? Yeah, but so does every other sport virtually (as steve points out earlier in his interview.)"

The individual quoted above also said previously that I had NO patent, would never get granted a patent, etc. He obviously knows nothing about them. Yes other games have penalties and periods. I was granted a patent for using those and other things for PAINTBALL - not other sports. Because, if you remember your history, no previous version of paintball had those kind of 'other sports' things in them. My patent was based on the uniqueness of bringing those kinds of things to paintball in a workable fashion.
 
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raehl

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Steve:

Your ignore button must be failing, as it seems there has been a second post mentioning me.

I stated, at the time, that you did not have a patent, and at the time, I was 100% correct, as a quick search of the USPTO database, including the date your patent was granted, would indicate. There ma y have been a little overlap there between when they granted it and when it showed up in the database.

Regardless, I know enough about patents to understand that 1) plenty of them are granted for frivolous purposes and 2) they are only a PRESUMPTION of the right to exclusively use something - you still have to demonstrate that someone else is infringing, and they can also demonstrate that the patent was granted in error, or does not apply at all. The only way to know for sure is to stick the whole mess in front of a judge.


You were not successful with college paintball because you screwed college paintball over on several occasions, (The last of which was the NEIC tournament in November of 2001 that you were supposed to help Amy Low run that you left her hanging on) and you wanted everyone in college paintball to pay you membership money for things they already had, and you wanted to use college paintball to push local fields into purchasing your format. We were not going to give you thousands of dollars of our money and thousands of dollars of our field owners' money to play a format we didn't want and pay MORE to get paint from you, even if you were "promising" that we could be on TV - that you maintained the rights to, leaving us in the position of begging for whatever you didn't keep.

Fortunately, most of this discussion is preserved on our web forums, so if anyone is that curious about it, you can go over to www.college-paintball.com, go to general discussion, and rewind back to April 2001 to June 2001 or so. While you seem to have revised history in your head again, the posts there are static and make a pretty good case as to why your college paintball overtures were rejected. (If anyone else is interested, there's also a thurough trouncing of Steve in the rec.sport.paintball archives from roughly the same time.)


Regardless, as far as I know, I'm the only national league official (aside from our Board of Directors) who is ELECTED. I'm there because the college players keep me there. After all the lip service you gave to non-profit leagues with elected officials in your interview, it seems a little odd to be jumping on someone for actually DOING it when you were trying to prevent it from happening.


I *DO* like the USPL format. It's just everything else around it that stinks.


And lastly, as I'm sure the rest of the posters here would be happy (or sad? ;)) to point out, I've been posting here quite regularly for quite some time - I ain't following you anywhere.
 

steve davidson

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Nick,

very good observations and points. I'll try to answer in a sensible manner.

First, given the history of tournament ball, as well as my own personal history (ie - screwed hard up the butt with a splintery telephone pole, without consent, without lube and on repeated occassions) I felt the need to be able to control the format, who participated in it, who could use it, how it would be used, etc.

Basically, my partners and I wanted the freedom to be able to set the standard, after which we had always planned on opening things up.

Given the proper environment, I'd be happy to forego the above.

(In reality, opening things up for use is an economic necessity, if for only one reason - where do the trained players come from? The comprehensive USPL league plan sets out the establishment of 'little leagues', private leagues, amateur leagues, professional ball, for fun leagues, etc.)

Second, the USPL format is not inexpensive to run (at least initially, there is a fair amount of up-front cost). By licensing the format, we are able to provide users with an exclusive property, one which they can use to make back some of that investment.

Thirdly, we wanted to control at least some of the manner in which money was made off of the format; our structure supported the obtaining of outside dollars and provided promoters, field owners, etc with incentives and opportunities to gain local and national advertising and marketing support.

(There were several licensing schemes, one of which cost less than the others, but mandated that the licensee would display X number of national advertiser's copy on their field.)

Fourth, following on from above: any large company who is being asked to spend large dollars for marketing wants to see what they are getting; the license requirements allowed us to go to those kinds of companies with a solid, believable plan, one which showed them how their dollars were going to be used in a business like, demonstrable and contractual manner.

Fifth, our 'pro' league structure served to concentrate things at venues which had at least the minimal requirements to support the format and league play. To compliment the paying licensees, we offered a 'team practice' license (at no cost), which was convertable, available for the asking to any team(s) that wanted to use the format but which did not have a licensed field within driving distance.

Sixth, that same licensing plan mandated the MAXIMUM fees that teams would be paying for use of the field, paint used at the field, air fills at the field - all supporting the concept of relying on outside dollars to fund it, as opposed to jamming players for it.

There's lots more, Nick - LOTS, but all of it relies on me saying: this is the way to do it for now, trust me and you'll see how it will benefit everyone. If you don't buy that concept (despite my history) none of the rest of it will seem right either.

All I can say is this: I watched numerous promoters screw over the teams for years, I decided that I could do something about it and set out to do so. I didn't show up at the formative NPPL meeting saying 'I'm taking over tournament ball here in the states' (something that several attendees at that meeting said they were worried about and were surprised that I didn't do it). I provided my WPF services free of charge, I provided my scoring services free of charge, I wrote the rules free of charge, etc., etc., etc.,

I've never been about money and the only times I seek 'control' are in those circumstances where I feel that certain things need to be done in certain ways; once things are rolling, I've been happy to (and have) stepped back.

If you (or anyone else) would like to see copies of the licensing program, league structure or anything else developed for USPL back in 98/99, I'd be happy to forward them to you. Our books were open as well and continue to be.

I have just one observation about your 'throw them both out there and the better format will win' comment. IF the industry were a level playing field, I'd be more than happy too - in fact, I'd welcome the challenge. But we both know that its not a level playing field. I've seen teams threatened with dire standing consequences if they even think about playing someone else's format, I've seen people offer a 'free paint day' to kill an event's attendance, I've heard company owners calling up other company owners and telling them that no more orders will be forthcoming so long as the company is associated with a league, or a team or an individual, etc.

The politics in this industry are dirty - very very dirty, underhanded and disgusting. Hardly anyone builds things first and then takes their profit. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else's motivations. No one trusts someone who just wants to make things better and everyone thinks that they must be the ONLY one doing something.

Give me a level playing field and I'll pretty much be willing to do anything with the patent. But so long as paintball remains the snake pit that it is, I've got to do what I think necessary to protect my investment.
 

steve davidson

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nick, you're absolutely right - which is why I keep telling all the rest of those guys to just shut the fornication up, follow my lead and everything will be hunky dory inside of two seasons.

I don't know why they haven't responded positvely to that plan.

You're question begs another. Is Millennium Series looking for a format?

If so, what's the bug-a-boo about a license to use a patented format? Suppose the license was a sweetheart deal, granting multi-year use and (very) reasonable fees based upon profitability?
 

Biff Thiele

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Jun 10, 2003
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Been a while for me, too.

Nick is on to the problem. It took us about 3 or 4 years to see that was what was dragging the NPPL down. We all had the same objectives in '92. But, the players would not stand up for themselves against promoters and/or sponsors that forced their agendas on teams that just wanted to play.

As Furby pointed out, most people want to avoid the politics. Unfortunately, if you avoid the politics, you only find out what's happening to your team after it's already been done. In the NPPL's early years the amateur teams continued to cave in to the powers that be, even when they knew it might hurt their teams. They had no choice - vote what your sponsor tells you to vote, or lose the sponsor. Later, the teams complained about how they had been screwed. But, by then, they had no votes and no control.

With Raehl, it got personal. He may have been well intentioned. But, he was simply wrong. He was wrong about me. He was wrong about Steve. He was wrong about USPL. Teams that played USPL or even the GTO series in '97, know that we were not about taking their money. Sure there were problems and issues. But we were not out to get anyone’s money. Chris never bothered to try us. He was young and since he had no personal knowledge of what went down before his time, he accepted rumor as fact and then convinced college teams that his way was the only way. It is unfortunate that Chris did not sit in on those meetings in '94 and '95 when the destiny of paintball began slipping away from the teams. If he had, he would know that we were then and are still on the same side. This sport is about the teams. Until we overcome the mistrust and focus on a common goal, TV will continue to be illusive. (ESPN, by the way did not reject the USPL format. They rejected paintball in general, and they did it well before the USPL came into focus. It was ESPN's involvment in a lawsuit with "What's His Name" that put the bad taste in their mouth. The same greed that stagnated the NPPL for 10+ years, is what sent TV packing.)

Nick, patents were never an issue in the early years of paintball and in the beginning of the NPPL, when we all met for a common goal. It wasn't until short-sighted greed took control of the sport away from the teams, that people began to protect their ideas as intellectual property. What else can you do? If the NPPL teams had stood up for themselves in the beginning - in spite of the threats, the PSP and the USPL would not exist, today. There would be no need. Both promoters and players needs would have been fulfilled by the original goals of the NPPL.

I look at it like I look at voting and patriotism. You cannot complain about a system when you don't participate. Patriosm is not blind support for any idea, simply because the guy talking says you got to do it this way. You need to be aware of all options and then you need to speak up in defense of your position. That means you HAVE TO vote. Politics is a part of life. If you don't exercise your right to vote, then why the hell should I have served as an Air Force medic during Viet Nam to secure that right for you. You can wrap yourself in red, white and blue all day. But, if you don't vote, don't pretend to be patriotic, because you dis every veteran and service man and woman who made the ultimate sacrifice or put themselves in harms way to guarantee you that right.
 

Biff Thiele

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Nick, that wasn't so long a rant.

Nick,

Once again, you are absolutely right. But, what you just said is exactly why the NPPL first formed in '92. What I just tried to explain and what we have been saying for years, is that we broke away from the NPPL, when the promoters took the players voice out of the equation. The player based and deemocratic plan was great in principle. But, the teams faild to stand their ground. Once the control was lost, we began anew and installed those controlls ourselves to prevent the same mistakes from being repeated by teams who would not stand up for themselves.

The teams failed to back the few players that stood up, including Steve and myself, on their behalf and pointed to the consequences of losing player control. They were afraid to buck the league big wheels. They were afraid to lose sponsors. They were afraid to appear to be dissatisfied with the system. They wanted to belong to that click. So, they made some bad choices. Many teams were too afraid to even show up for a vote - plausible denial I guess. Whatever the reason, they did not know what was in their best interest, so they avoided confronting issues that determined their future. And suddenly they had no control of that future.

About 18 months ago the amateur players started talking toug actuallyh and it looked like they might put something together. But, as I predicted back then, it did not last. Their rep was brought into the power structure and no significant changes have occured since.

The teams already have the power. They just fail to exercise it out of fear. As soon as the teams organize, they will hold the control that that power gives them. Unions have been arguing this for decades. People that face their fear and make sacrifices for the fellows or, in this case, tell a sponsor that dictates morals to take a hike, sponsors will pay more attention to what teams want, rather than the other way around.

I don't know what you think the USPL is all about. But, it is exactly what you are talking about. Unfortunately, as Steve pointed out in the interview, until the teams get some spine, we set up protection for them. And as he pointed out in this thread, when the teams take the initiative, we would gladly relinquish control and defer to them. But, with people like Chris and “his mentor” casting doubt on the things that they can't comprehend or refuse to try out of fear of being proven wrong, we and other independent thinkers have to tough it out.
 
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raehl

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So Nick...

Are you saying that we (the NCPA) are doing things right? ;)

Biff, it was nothing personal. I read the contracts the USPL offerred, others read the contracts, we had legal counsel read the contracts, and everyone agreed that the contracts sucked (for us, they were pretty nice for you.) So we didn't sign them. You were not willing to negotiate on them, so that was that.

We now have the ONLY organization in paintball that is 1) Incorporated as a NON-PROFIT organization and 2) Under the firm control of the players.

We have a 7 member Board of Directors. If they decide tomorrow that I'm not the President anymore, then I'm not the President, and the organization keeps all of the organization's stuff. Those Directors are elected to one year terms, so if the players decide their Directors stink, they elect other people to do it the next year. If they're REALLY ticked, they can even recall a Director.


Frankly, given that Steve et. al. have been talking about how everything should be "in control of the players" for over TEN YEARS and it hasn't happened yet, and I managed to take an organization from non-existence to non-profit AND player controlled in under 2, I can only conclude that you're either terribly inept, or just full of it, and since I honestly believe Steve is pretty smart, I'm inclined to believe he's full of it.


If Steve wasn't full of it, this is what Steve would do:

1) Form a non-stock corporation.
2) Specify that the organization shall be controlled by the people who participate in that organization's events
3) Donate his format to that organization.


But Steve won't do it, because then the players WILL be in control, and it's possible that the players will decide to do something Steve doesn't want.


Anyone who says the players should be in control, and then patents the way the players play for themselves, IS A LIAR.


Proof is in the pudding.


- Chris
 

Biff Thiele

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<< I managed to take an organization from non-existence to non-profit AND player controlled in under 2, I can only conclude that you're either terribly inept, or just full of it, and since I honestly believe Steve is pretty smart, I'm inclined to believe he's full of it. >> You were successful, because you had a relatively small number of teams believing you and you had no opposition. You can't compare yourself to the NPPL. You had no promoters or sponsors with money threatening your teams.


<< But Steve won't do it, because then the players WILL be in control, and it's possible that the players will decide to do something Steve doesn't want. >> See, this is where people begin to see the BS in you, Chris. We have explained this in detail and you refuse to accept it. People start to ignore your, because your credibility falls apart when you make baseless statements. Your experiment worked because you had fewer teams to deal with an no opposition to your plan.


<< Anyone who says the players should be in control, and then patents the way the players play for themselves, IS A LIAR. >> Or has seen how teams have been manipulated because they fear reprisals.