Sponsorship post. Controversial?

[Robbo]

Originally posted by sjt19

Robbo, are you saying that with the same kind of training that the Legion, Nexus and the Ton Tons do, the likes of the Ugly Ducklings, Tigers, Joy Division, etc couldnt get to a position where they could compete in the States? What is stopping them do this is that they cant afford to do it. The Ducklings are not playing Miami cos they have no team cash left (as Broccolli said a few days ago). If they had the increased sponsorship they could afford to do so and would improve as Nexus, Legion and Ton Ton have improved.

Hmm, you are pushing me onto tricky ground here !!!
I tell ya what stops established teams from getting up there, training the right things in the right way and dedication, that's what differentiates them for the most part.
Money is just one aspect and not the most important.
Even if the Ugly Ducks did manage to go to Miami, or wherever, this doesn't mean they are gonna be able to automatically compete with the top Yanks.
Playing tourneys is merely the arena in which your training exhibits itself, the real work is done when you are not playing tourneys.
Get the roster right, get the coach right, do the training and that's the answer !

 

[sjt19]

Originally posted by Robbo
Hmm, you are pushing me onto tricky ground here !!!

Originally posted by Robbo
I tell ya what stops established teams from getting up there, training the right things in the right way and dedication, that's what differentiates them for the most part.

Ok, fair enough, but the Ducks (for example) have a lot of experience between them, and could travel over to the UK, Sweden, Russia, France to train against the likes of Nexus, Ton Ton, Joy, Legion, which would benefit them far more, and improve them far more than what thyey do at the moment. They cant do this because they dont have the cash. Increasded sponsorship would change that.

Originally posted by Robbo
Money is just one aspect and not the most important.

true, but you guys have benefitted from a combination of having both the training regime in place, but also playing the right events, its far more expensive to go to the States than to a Millennium event. here's a question, do you think that Nexus would have progressed as much as they have f they had not played in the States, and had only done all of the Millenniums? I dont think so as the quality of opposition is not the same in the MS as the NPPl where you play US am teams that would be classed as Euro pros.

Originally posted by Robbo
Even if the Ugly Ducks did manage to go to Miami, or wherever, this doesn't mean they are gonna be able to automatically compete with the top Yanks.

i agree, but that was just an example. If the Ducks, or Joy, or any Euro pro team had played all the NPPL's instead of the MS then they would have been at a higher standard than they are now, even with the same training regime.

Originally posted by Robbo
Playing tourneys is merely the arena in which your training exhibits itself, the real work is done when you are not playing tourneys.

True, but the higher standard event you play, the faster you are gonna improve as you have to work harder against a higher quality opposition. As Nexus have found out this year. The NPPL's have been harder than the MS, (although the two you played were not representative of the rest in terms of quality of opposition. Amsterdam had 11 pro teams, Sweden only 8) So you have been to the NPPL's where there are ALWAYS 15+ quality pro teams and many Am teams like STP, Evil, Kapp, Statis, Gateway, Farside who would be pro in Europe anyway.

Originally posted by Robbo
Get the roster right, get the coach right, do the training and that's the answer !

True again, but in my opiion the Ducklings have the best back line in European paintball, if not one of the best in the world. They have the roster, they can improve the training techniques (as can every team as nobody is perfect) but where are they going to learn more from their training regime, in the MS, or the NPPL.

If you honestly believed that the MS was a high standard of teams, then you wouldnt be playing in the NPPL, you'd play every MS event as it would be closer. but Nexus have been going where the talent is, and it shows in their performances this year that i have seen. They play like an American team rather than a European team.

here's a question for you Robbo, do you think that Nexus would be where they are today if they had done exactly the same training, with the same backing, with the same equipment, but instead of playing the NPPL's they had only played the Millennium Series?


And i agree with Liz, NO team, be it Am, Nov or Rookie deserves any sponsorship, untill they step up to pro and prove their worth.Largely the people that argue that are going to be the guys who dont have the drive to be the best that they can be, and are happy playing at a low level thinking that they deserve sponsorship, without ever having earned it.

Originally posted by garycarrot
Its only the "pros" who get things for no cost

I dont think that any Euro pros get stuff for nothing, every pro i have talked to pays to play, it may be subsidised, but they still pay to play!

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>NO team, be it Am, Nov or Rookie deserves any sponsorship, untill they step up to pro and prove their worth

I ain't too sure about that - I think some of tha big name Am teams shift more product for their sponsor than a lot of lesser Pros, therefore they are more valuable to their sponsor.

Sponsorship is not about ability and results alone.

One interesting thing to look at is the real top teams - how many of them come with attractive baggage - i.e. shops/fields/their own manufacturing companies? Answer = a lot.

So, is it chicken and egg?

 

[sjt19]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
I ain't too sure about that - I think some of tha big name Am teams shift more product for their sponsor than a lot of lesser Pros, therefore they are more valuable to their sponsor.

I would agree with that, but then they shouldnt realyl be am teams, Kapp wont be am next year, and they are (i would imagine) way more beneficial to the Kapp Factory guys than say a pro team like Detroit Thunder

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
One interesting thing to look at is the real top teams - how many of them come with attractive baggage - i.e. shops/fields/their own manufacturing companies? Answer = a lot.

Ok:

Nexus--> No field, no shop, no company
Ton Ton--> Adrenaline Games shop, but they have earned their place at the top as they are a great team.
Ugly Ducklings,-->i dont think they have a shop, or a field (i may be wrong)
NBK--> Kim runs sniper paintball but i am not sure how big it is, and whether they get sponsors cos of it.
Joy Division--> there is an indoor center, but i doubt that DYE or WDP get anything out of that, a paint sponsor may do though.
Dynasty, Strange, etc....whats the score in the States?

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
So, is it chicken and egg?

Possibly

 

[TJ Lambini]

>> would agree with that, but then they shouldnt realyl be am teams, Kapp wont be am next year, and they are (i would imagine) way more beneficial to the Kapp Factory guys than say a pro team like Detroit Thunder

Well, I wasn't thinking of KAPP particularly - my point was less down to ability than to representing sponsors correctly. And Detoit Thunder is, in my opnion, one of the more valuable teams to their sponsor - Thunder does A LOT for GameFace.


Nexus--> No field, no shop, no company

One Word: coverage. PGI is industry baggage just like a shop or field, remember...think Nexus would have got deals anywhere near 6he size of the ones they got were it not for PGI? And let's not forget Jack and Ledz work for a lil company called Planet

Ton Ton--> Adrenaline Games shop, but they have earned their place at the top as they are a great team.

Plus fields. Plus a tournament. Plus a magazine. Don't think these things don't have a major influence on potential sponsors.

Ugly Ducklings,-->i dont think they have a shop, or a field (i may be wrong)

I wouldn't say they are heavily sponsored.

NBK--> Kim runs sniper paintball but i am not sure how big it is, and whether they get sponsors cos of it.


Ditto

Joy Division--> there is an indoor center, but i doubt that DYE or WDP get anything out of that, a paint sponsor may do though.

Two fields, plus Joy was initially a team of models who did their bit for promoting their sponsors products pretty heavily, over and above their considerable on-field skills.

Dynasty, Strange, etc....whats the score in the States?

Well, Chuck was working with JT when he started the team, plus Fraige's dad runs GAP.

Paul Alders and BJ were working at Smart Parts.

 

[sjt19]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Detoit Thunder is, in my opnion, one of the more valuable teams to their sponsor - Thunder does A LOT for GameFace.

Fair enough, we dont get to hear anything of Detroit Thunder over here, or game face. If you asked me to name a player from Thunder i wouldnt be able to. I could do from most of the of the NXL teams, but not Thunder.

So the best way to get your team heavily sponsored is set up a paintball related business/field/get a big oney magaine sponsor?

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by sjt19
Ok, fair enough, but the Ducks (for example) have a lot of experience between them, and could travel over to the UK, Sweden, Russia, France to train against the likes of Nexus, Ton Ton, Joy, Legion, which would benefit them far more, and improve them far more than what thyey do at the moment. They cant do this because they dont have the cash. Increasded sponsorship would change that.

true, but you guys have benefitted from a combination of having both the training regime in place, but also playing the right events, its far more expensive to go to the States than to a Millennium event. here's a question, do you think that Nexus would have progressed as much as they have f they had not played in the States, and had only done all of the Millenniums? I dont think so as the quality of opposition is not the same in the MS as the NPPl where you play US am teams that would be classed as Euro pros.

i agree, but that was just an example. If the Ducks, or Joy, or any Euro pro team had played all the NPPL's instead of the MS then they would have been at a higher standard than they are now, even with the same training regime.

True, but the higher standard event you play, the faster you are gonna improve as you have to work harder against a higher quality opposition. As Nexus have found out this year. The NPPL's have been harder than the MS, (although the two you played were not representative of the rest in terms of quality of opposition. Amsterdam had 11 pro teams, Sweden only 8) So you have been to the NPPL's where there are ALWAYS 15+ quality pro teams and many Am teams like STP, Evil, Kapp, Statis, Gateway, Farside who would be pro in Europe anyway.

True again, but in my opiion the Ducklings have the best back line in European paintball, if not one of the best in the world. They have the roster, they can improve the training techniques (as can every team as nobody is perfect) but where are they going to learn more from their training regime, in the MS, or the NPPL.

If you honestly believed that the MS was a high standard of teams, then you wouldnt be playing in the NPPL, you'd play every MS event as it would be closer. but Nexus have been going where the talent is, and it shows in their performances this year that i have seen. They play like an American team rather than a European team.

here's a question for you Robbo, do you think that Nexus would be where they are today if they had done exactly the same training, with the same backing, with the same equipment, but instead of playing the NPPL's they had only played the Millennium Series?

To answer most of your questions, I will tell ya this :- When we went to Huntington Beach at the start of this year, we sucked, we played badly and our final position in the tournament placings rightly refelcted that.
Any Euro pro team and maybe some of our top am's could have done better !
Between Huntington and Vegas (8 weeks), we played one very small tourney with no other recognised pros in attendance.
The rest of our preparation for Vegas was done on the training field. In Vegas we qualified for the Sunday club and beat the likes of Rage, Buswhackers (in 90 seconds) and the Russian Legion on the way only missing out on the final four by only a couple of kills from the Russians.
So how did this drastic 'change in form' come about ?
It weren't by accident Sam and it self-evidently did not happen because we played in tournaments, it was achieved on the training field concentrating on the right aspects of play. I say again, get the roster right, get the coach right, do the correct training and it will come !
All the rest is bull !

 

[TJ Lambini]

You don't get to hear anything about the Detroit Thunder who have featured heavily in PGI recently?

 

[manike]

Originally posted by sjt19
its far more expensive to go to the States than to a Millennium event.

That's just not true. What are you basing this on? I've played many USA events that have worked out cheaper than MS events. Not to mention the fact that as a Euro team playing in the USA you can scam some pretty decent deals on paint etc. so I hear.

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Sponsorship is not about ability and results alone.

Absolutely!

There are benefits to sponsoring teams that aren't always winning. How they interact with potential customers and what they do to help you at events is also a factor, as is friendships and loyalty.

Detroit thunder probably played NXL with more heart than anyone else at World Cup. They were pretty awesome and nobodies whipping boys. You may not have heard so much about them before but I have little doubt you will in the future and they are getting more and more press coverage lately as well as the products they use.

Currently yes, to get the sponsorship you either have to be the best or be connected. That's what makes the World go around.

I've never been that great a paintballer, nor have I played at the highest levels, but the work I put into other areas of paintball has meant I've enjoyed a very good state of 'sponsorship'. Some in return for work and help, and some from forming great friendships.

Now as a potential sponsor (with a tiny bit of influence in some areas...) I'm not just thinking about sponsoring teams that win everything. Although that would be nice there are advantages to be had elsewhere. What I really want is people that will show my products in a good light, promote them, help with back up, and help other people that use them to get the best from them also. Now yes winning is a part of that, but so is the team that lends it's equipment out for others to try, the team that hangs around in the bar and talks about what they use and what it does for them, etc.

You can promote a sponsors products just as well when you aren't playing as when you are.

There is one guy that I have seen at the World Cup every year for the last 5 years or so. He'd read something I wrote on the net on Warpig a long time ago and when he worked out who I was he came over to talk to me about it. Every year I see him and he's now made at least 2 major gun purchases and several other product purchases based on chats we have. He always comes to ask me what I think of the latest stuff and what I am shooting now, we have a great chat and it's all good, sometimes he is swayed sometime he isn't, but he does go away with as much information as I can give him on what he wants to know.

 

[Hotpoint]

Originally posted by sjt19
Hotpoint i'm not talking about the increased number of players that the US has, merely how can Europe catch up fast. The simple answer is to train more and play more events like Nexus have done, but the NPPL's cost money and many teams can afford to play it as well as the Millenniums and train.

This may have the effect that Europe catches up fast but it would be a temporary effect with severe long-term consequences

Nexus has developed a feeder team which ensures a flow of players but what if the source of players into the feeder team itself dries up? If we weakened support for the Novice Teams and directed these funds into the Top Euro Pro's we would be winning a pyrrhic victory at the long-term expense of European Paintball