dude who really cares.....its over and nothing has happened and everyones cool, except you.... and maybe a few more
Some M25 marshalling suggestions, what do you think?
- Thread starter sjt19
- Start date
No i'm cool, just get pissed when a thread which goes on for 4 pages only contains about a page and a half of what the thread was actually about!
M25 Leg 6 Comments
Not quite sure even how to start this msg, but here goes. I was fortunate(?) enough to be chosen as the Ultimate for Field 2, I'm not trained as an Ultimate, but was there none the less.
I've marshalled quite a few tournaments over the years, starting with Hyperball as my first major. Anyway if anyone has specific coments or queries regarding the field I'm happy to answer them either here or via private message if you so wish.
As I marshal I try and always view things from a players point of view and always try and understand what exactly the problem is.
Some of the problems identified in earlier posts on this thread either relating to Field 2 or others I will certainly try and address.
Firstly number of marshals, Tere were 7marshals on Field 2 at the start of the day, we lost one marshal with an injured leg, we also had another who had to sit out a few games with a twisted knee, bringing us down to 5 around the middle of the day - many thanks to Sparklie forcoming on field to help us out, much appreciated.
Is 7 marshals enough to control 14 players? Generally yes, but if you want to cheat there is ample opportunity to do so.
Experience of the marshals, from my knowledge of the marshals on the Field, I guess only 2 had any notable tournament experience and some had none. I had a briefing on he field for the marshals, discussing, zoning arrangements, signalling, comunications, checking players, neutral calls etc, where to move, the list goes on. There were a number of issues on the field relating to both marshals and players.
I don't know the names of the teams invovled in many of these instances, so apologies for that.
Firstly the starting gate falling on a team following a flag grab, the gate was supported on one foot, additional feet were sought but none were available. The player grabbing the flag collided with the gate knocking it on to the eliminated team. I did not check personally on the team and for that I must apologise as your safety should be my first concern. I had hoped when asking if there were any problems at the end of the game (about a minute later) injuries damae would have been raised, but none were.
The team the walked off from the deadzone across the field during the game. Guys I understand you may feel aggreived with decisions on field, but it didn't help me identify the problems, if you are shouting and screaming in my face then achieiving resolution is going to be a problem.
Biased marshalling calls, personally I could identify about 10 players by sight, and most of them i wouldn't know with their goggles on, and quite frankly I don't care. The marshalling I do I try to remain consistent, fair and unbiased, oh yes, and right all the time. Most of the time when I ask players if there were any problems during the game most of the time there were none, if they were I'd listen and try to take that coment on board.
DMW - shot the flag carrier ond one other on field. Loads of verbal from the grabbing team and in reply from the deadzone. Yes its not nice, but it happens often enough that teams should watch for it. With regards dead players playing on in the game, all the marshals were questioned by me, and I was satisifed it had not taken place.
The incident where the marshal eliminted a player, relaised his mistake and replaced in the game after two attackers had run past him to grab the flag, after which time he shot them - all live players were replaced prior to the incident and the game replayed from theat point.
Mugging player, playing on massively, he was eliminated, 2-4-1 imposed and the player he shot replaced in the game
Anything I've missed, anything you want to ask then feel free to do so.
Dazza
Not quite sure even how to start this msg, but here goes. I was fortunate(?) enough to be chosen as the Ultimate for Field 2, I'm not trained as an Ultimate, but was there none the less.
I've marshalled quite a few tournaments over the years, starting with Hyperball as my first major. Anyway if anyone has specific coments or queries regarding the field I'm happy to answer them either here or via private message if you so wish.
As I marshal I try and always view things from a players point of view and always try and understand what exactly the problem is.
Some of the problems identified in earlier posts on this thread either relating to Field 2 or others I will certainly try and address.
Firstly number of marshals, Tere were 7marshals on Field 2 at the start of the day, we lost one marshal with an injured leg, we also had another who had to sit out a few games with a twisted knee, bringing us down to 5 around the middle of the day - many thanks to Sparklie forcoming on field to help us out, much appreciated.
Is 7 marshals enough to control 14 players? Generally yes, but if you want to cheat there is ample opportunity to do so.
Experience of the marshals, from my knowledge of the marshals on the Field, I guess only 2 had any notable tournament experience and some had none. I had a briefing on he field for the marshals, discussing, zoning arrangements, signalling, comunications, checking players, neutral calls etc, where to move, the list goes on. There were a number of issues on the field relating to both marshals and players.
I don't know the names of the teams invovled in many of these instances, so apologies for that.
Firstly the starting gate falling on a team following a flag grab, the gate was supported on one foot, additional feet were sought but none were available. The player grabbing the flag collided with the gate knocking it on to the eliminated team. I did not check personally on the team and for that I must apologise as your safety should be my first concern. I had hoped when asking if there were any problems at the end of the game (about a minute later) injuries damae would have been raised, but none were.
The team the walked off from the deadzone across the field during the game. Guys I understand you may feel aggreived with decisions on field, but it didn't help me identify the problems, if you are shouting and screaming in my face then achieiving resolution is going to be a problem.
Biased marshalling calls, personally I could identify about 10 players by sight, and most of them i wouldn't know with their goggles on, and quite frankly I don't care. The marshalling I do I try to remain consistent, fair and unbiased, oh yes, and right all the time. Most of the time when I ask players if there were any problems during the game most of the time there were none, if they were I'd listen and try to take that coment on board.
DMW - shot the flag carrier ond one other on field. Loads of verbal from the grabbing team and in reply from the deadzone. Yes its not nice, but it happens often enough that teams should watch for it. With regards dead players playing on in the game, all the marshals were questioned by me, and I was satisifed it had not taken place.
The incident where the marshal eliminted a player, relaised his mistake and replaced in the game after two attackers had run past him to grab the flag, after which time he shot them - all live players were replaced prior to the incident and the game replayed from theat point.
Mugging player, playing on massively, he was eliminated, 2-4-1 imposed and the player he shot replaced in the game
Anything I've missed, anything you want to ask then feel free to do so.
Dazza
Suggestions on marshalling
I marshal several sports including volleyball at international level and would make the following coments relating to my experience.
The best players do not make the best marshals. Most sports employ an entirely separate individuals since the skill sets required are vastly differing. How many top class footballers referee? Yes top class players may know all the rules, but that doesn't mean they will make good referees
Paying referees more, yes it would be nice, but you may just end up with a lot of well paid bad referees. Paintball actually pays quite well for judges compared with other sports. I ref because I enjoy it, not for huge amounts of money.
Registration and training. Until all referees are trained and approved by a single body, and checked for competence you will never have the degree of consistency and skill you all seem to want to badly. If the desire ever becomes a reality it will take money, time and resources which appear not be avaialble.
Most sports have proper disciplinary procedures, nationally approved trainers, training levels that allow you referee games of a certain level and procedures for players to resolve things in games that don't involve shouting and swearing no matter what the cause.
Teams marshalling - see the comment regarding players marshalling. I marshall with between 2-6 other marshals depending on the sport. I don't know any of them intimately, but I know they will all be trained and competent, because they will be registered, I can check their identity cards etc. We all manage to marshal comptently because we all know the rules and the systems in place to run the game.
Teams on rotation marshalling one leg and then playing one - again this won't necessily get good referees, but will provide more bodies.
Talking to marshals - one rule that seems to work quite well is that only the captain can discuss issues with a judge. May slow things down, but it provides a buffer and helps disperse adrenaline.
Angry players and referees - Oh yes on some marshalling courses they actually teach yout that a someone who is angry is also a liar - angry people are normally angry about something else and will seek to over confront on a 'safer' issue than the one that person is actually unhappy about.
Right first time, every time - We all want it, we all hope for it, but very rarely get it. Whether I'm playing or reffing any sport I accept that I can and will make incorrect decisions, all I can do is try to learn from those and not make the same mistake again.
Dazza
I marshal several sports including volleyball at international level and would make the following coments relating to my experience.
The best players do not make the best marshals. Most sports employ an entirely separate individuals since the skill sets required are vastly differing. How many top class footballers referee? Yes top class players may know all the rules, but that doesn't mean they will make good referees
Paying referees more, yes it would be nice, but you may just end up with a lot of well paid bad referees. Paintball actually pays quite well for judges compared with other sports. I ref because I enjoy it, not for huge amounts of money.
Registration and training. Until all referees are trained and approved by a single body, and checked for competence you will never have the degree of consistency and skill you all seem to want to badly. If the desire ever becomes a reality it will take money, time and resources which appear not be avaialble.
Most sports have proper disciplinary procedures, nationally approved trainers, training levels that allow you referee games of a certain level and procedures for players to resolve things in games that don't involve shouting and swearing no matter what the cause.
Teams marshalling - see the comment regarding players marshalling. I marshall with between 2-6 other marshals depending on the sport. I don't know any of them intimately, but I know they will all be trained and competent, because they will be registered, I can check their identity cards etc. We all manage to marshal comptently because we all know the rules and the systems in place to run the game.
Teams on rotation marshalling one leg and then playing one - again this won't necessily get good referees, but will provide more bodies.
Talking to marshals - one rule that seems to work quite well is that only the captain can discuss issues with a judge. May slow things down, but it provides a buffer and helps disperse adrenaline.
Angry players and referees - Oh yes on some marshalling courses they actually teach yout that a someone who is angry is also a liar - angry people are normally angry about something else and will seek to over confront on a 'safer' issue than the one that person is actually unhappy about.
Right first time, every time - We all want it, we all hope for it, but very rarely get it. Whether I'm playing or reffing any sport I accept that I can and will make incorrect decisions, all I can do is try to learn from those and not make the same mistake again.
Dazza
So there was this one time on paintballer i had this idea for marshalling .......
If a team turns up on the day with a judge ready to go they either get the entry fee reduced or a better way the judge still gets paid but the team that has supplied that judge for the day then gets awarded an additional 100 points say on top of there score for the day now if i was playing and knew ther was a team already 100 points ahead of me for just bringing a judge then i would sure as hell make sure that they brought a judge aswell !!
Also to make sure teams havent just dragged someone off the streets to judge the already assigned field ultimates can then vet the judges they have been given then if the judge is found not compatent enough to carry out his or her duties then the team wont get their 100 points
It makes sense to me that instead of increasing the prices of tourneys and trying to buy better judges when there isnt enough available at the moment cos they are either playing or have other comittments then it would be cheaper alternative its either that or the tourny organisers from all the U.K events get their heads together standardise the rules and set up a marshalling team to cover each event that has been trained though this would most definately then increase the tourny entrance fee alot to cover these super judges that know what they are doing and to be honest i cant see that happening for along time
Now i dont have many ideas but this would be one way of keeping the tourneys as cheap as possible also let me add to it by saying that
If a team turns up on the day with a judge ready to go they either get the entry fee reduced or a better way the judge still gets paid but the team that has supplied that judge for the day then gets awarded an additional 100 points say on top of there score for the day now if i was playing and knew ther was a team already 100 points ahead of me for just bringing a judge then i would sure as hell make sure that they brought a judge aswell !!
Also to make sure teams havent just dragged someone off the streets to judge the already assigned field ultimates can then vet the judges they have been given then if the judge is found not compatent enough to carry out his or her duties then the team wont get their 100 points
It makes sense to me that instead of increasing the prices of tourneys and trying to buy better judges when there isnt enough available at the moment cos they are either playing or have other comittments then it would be cheaper alternative its either that or the tourny organisers from all the U.K events get their heads together standardise the rules and set up a marshalling team to cover each event that has been trained though this would most definately then increase the tourny entrance fee alot to cover these super judges that know what they are doing and to be honest i cant see that happening for along time
uddestions on marshalling 2
Well what the hell, lets see if I can fill up a page.
1 - All marshals should be UKPSF (or a.n.other organisation)trained, graded and assessed for competency
2 - All tournaments should only used approved tournament marshals
3 - Marshals should be formally assessed in tournament environments and given performance feedback
4 - Marshals should be assigned to the tournament by the governing body
5 - Marshals should be paid fixed fees per game plus agreed travelling
6 - Senior/ ultimate refrees should be paid higher expenses and be of a higher grade
7 - full grievance procedures should exist for instances where a team disagrees with a refereeing decision or comptence.
8 - Marshals should have a number of credits assigned for upheld complaints regarding performance with sanctions including; retraining, reassessment in game, dropping marshalling grades, temporary and permanent bans.
9 - Marshals should be graded as should events. Only marshals of the required standard being allowed to marshal
10 - Marshals must declare team allegiance, sponsors etc to the governing body
11 - Marshals should complete a minimum numbers of games/ events per year to maintain the graded level or reduced in grade
Think is this is a pipe dream? Think again, paintball is the exception to the rule, most sports operate these or similar systems and their forums are not plastered with abusive, angry and false acusations and declarations of who did what to whom and 'oh I shot him first judge and he's a complete to**er'.
Thoughts please
Dazza
Well what the hell, lets see if I can fill up a page.
1 - All marshals should be UKPSF (or a.n.other organisation)trained, graded and assessed for competency
2 - All tournaments should only used approved tournament marshals
3 - Marshals should be formally assessed in tournament environments and given performance feedback
4 - Marshals should be assigned to the tournament by the governing body
5 - Marshals should be paid fixed fees per game plus agreed travelling
6 - Senior/ ultimate refrees should be paid higher expenses and be of a higher grade
7 - full grievance procedures should exist for instances where a team disagrees with a refereeing decision or comptence.
8 - Marshals should have a number of credits assigned for upheld complaints regarding performance with sanctions including; retraining, reassessment in game, dropping marshalling grades, temporary and permanent bans.
9 - Marshals should be graded as should events. Only marshals of the required standard being allowed to marshal
10 - Marshals must declare team allegiance, sponsors etc to the governing body
11 - Marshals should complete a minimum numbers of games/ events per year to maintain the graded level or reduced in grade
Think is this is a pipe dream? Think again, paintball is the exception to the rule, most sports operate these or similar systems and their forums are not plastered with abusive, angry and false acusations and declarations of who did what to whom and 'oh I shot him first judge and he's a complete to**er'.
Thoughts please
Dazza
ez-rhino
Fantastic... I tried to put across similar sentiments yesterday, but ended up throwing away what I'd written because it turned into a slanging session too easily.
For what it's worth... what if we paid marshalls less (like in other sports)? Then it would simply be the ones who wanted to do it that would be marshalls. There is definately a need for qualification of marshalls though.
Also, I really like the idea of each team having to supply a marshall. In that way, there should be a large pool of marshalls on the day, enough to make sure each team is not marshalled by their own, and also to provide marshalls with the rest they need. It's a long day out there, and marshalls need to keep their wits for about 7 or 8 times the length that players do.
Fantastic... I tried to put across similar sentiments yesterday, but ended up throwing away what I'd written because it turned into a slanging session too easily.
For what it's worth... what if we paid marshalls less (like in other sports)? Then it would simply be the ones who wanted to do it that would be marshalls. There is definately a need for qualification of marshalls though.
Also, I really like the idea of each team having to supply a marshall. In that way, there should be a large pool of marshalls on the day, enough to make sure each team is not marshalled by their own, and also to provide marshalls with the rest they need. It's a long day out there, and marshalls need to keep their wits for about 7 or 8 times the length that players do.
EZ,
get ya own ideas!
Although I'm in favour of most of what you say, I do not think teams should be supplying judges on top of playing.
I do think the best idea so far is to have Marshalls centrally governed and assigned to a tournament by this body, not employed by the tournament promoter. Marshalls should then be paid by the central body not the event proceeds. This also removes any doubt as to whether the marshalls get paid.
get ya own ideas
!Although I'm in favour of most of what you say, I do not think teams should be supplying judges on top of playing.
I do think the best idea so far is to have Marshalls centrally governed and assigned to a tournament by this body, not employed by the tournament promoter. Marshalls should then be paid by the central body not the event proceeds. This also removes any doubt as to whether the marshalls get paid.
Dazza,
I just want to be clear about one thing, i have not seen ANY bias marshalling at a M25 event. I've seen slow marshalling, and bad calls, i've seen marshalls watching the game instead of players, but i've never seen anyone actually be bias against another team. I ain't saying that it has never happened, just that i've never seen it.
I think you'll find that most of the time it's just bad calls, due to the marshalls not understanding what's happening, or players playing on. That's why you guys have to get in there and check players.
We lost three game specifically because of poor judging, specifically because a player was hit and didn't walk, (maybe didn't know about it) and because a judge didn't check the player after we SHOUTED at the judges repeatedly to check the players in a specific bunker, and on a specific part of the body or gun!
We were awarded a 141 after the game because a player got hit on the loader, which left one player remaining, but if the player had been pulled WHEN HE WAS SHOT (or anytime in the next minute) then it would have left our boys with two on two, which atleast gave them a fighting chance. (on field 4 btw)
Our player screamed at the judges to check his loader, and the judges ignored him. If you arn't going to check the players on your own initiative, then at least listen when players tell you they hit someone and do a check then!
Our first game on field 2 a player with a clear hit on the side of his hopper (from QUAKE) kept playing (i have to point out that he didn't know he had been shot, and it probably wasn't clear to him, so i'm not accusing him of cheating). Me and another player were shouting at the judge to check him; i told the judge which player he was, and that he was hit on his loader.
He proceded to the last three players on our team, which sucks because he should have been eliminated.
Again Judges, we were telling you where he was hit, WTF were you doing?
Last game on field 2
Player (i'm not naming names because this team actually cheated)
Got shot by Jamiee Bird on the forearm (and Jamiee Bird dosn't lie about ANYTHING so if she and the judge next to her say this guy was hit, then he was hit). The judge next to her saw the hit and called a judge to check him. She's yelling at the judges to check him, the Judge on the other side of the field is yelling to check him, but the judge (oddly the same judge that ****ed up in an earlier game on that field) did NOTHING!
This guy shot two players, and when he was checked a good minute later, suprise! he wasn't hit anymore. If the judge next to him (less than 15 feet) had gotten in to check him, maybe he wouldn't have had the chance to contemplate his chances of getting away with it, nor had a chance to wipe the hit off. If you give some no game sucker a chance to wipe, He's going to go for it.
Dazza (and all the other judges)
I can understand if you mess up the rules, cause you may not be that experienced. I can understand if there arn't that many judges and it's hard to watch all the players,
BUT
WHEN we tell you we shot someone, and where we shot him, GET OFF YOUR @SS AND CHECK HIM!
If you can't run over to a player and check him then you are INCOMPETENT as a judge and should not be on the field!
OK Dazza, there's a few things i want to address:
True SOME Pro players suck as marshalls, but 95% of pro, and am A players will do a better job than a bunch of volenteers. They know how they expect to be reffed, and their reputation rest on them doing a good job.
The answer is simple, make it worth the players while to skip a tourney, and marshall instead. Marshalling points, prizes, a decient wage, anything to get good judges. Because without good judging we might as well be playing down at the temple.
I just want to be clear about one thing, i have not seen ANY bias marshalling at a M25 event. I've seen slow marshalling, and bad calls, i've seen marshalls watching the game instead of players, but i've never seen anyone actually be bias against another team. I ain't saying that it has never happened, just that i've never seen it.
I think you'll find that most of the time it's just bad calls, due to the marshalls not understanding what's happening, or players playing on. That's why you guys have to get in there and check players.
We lost three game specifically because of poor judging, specifically because a player was hit and didn't walk, (maybe didn't know about it) and because a judge didn't check the player after we SHOUTED at the judges repeatedly to check the players in a specific bunker, and on a specific part of the body or gun!
We were awarded a 141 after the game because a player got hit on the loader, which left one player remaining, but if the player had been pulled WHEN HE WAS SHOT (or anytime in the next minute) then it would have left our boys with two on two, which atleast gave them a fighting chance. (on field 4 btw)
Our player screamed at the judges to check his loader, and the judges ignored him. If you arn't going to check the players on your own initiative, then at least listen when players tell you they hit someone and do a check then!
Our first game on field 2 a player with a clear hit on the side of his hopper (from QUAKE) kept playing (i have to point out that he didn't know he had been shot, and it probably wasn't clear to him, so i'm not accusing him of cheating). Me and another player were shouting at the judge to check him; i told the judge which player he was, and that he was hit on his loader.
He proceded to the last three players on our team, which sucks because he should have been eliminated.
Again Judges, we were telling you where he was hit, WTF were you doing?
Last game on field 2
Player (i'm not naming names because this team actually cheated)
Got shot by Jamiee Bird on the forearm (and Jamiee Bird dosn't lie about ANYTHING so if she and the judge next to her say this guy was hit, then he was hit). The judge next to her saw the hit and called a judge to check him. She's yelling at the judges to check him, the Judge on the other side of the field is yelling to check him, but the judge (oddly the same judge that ****ed up in an earlier game on that field) did NOTHING!
This guy shot two players, and when he was checked a good minute later, suprise! he wasn't hit anymore. If the judge next to him (less than 15 feet) had gotten in to check him, maybe he wouldn't have had the chance to contemplate his chances of getting away with it, nor had a chance to wipe the hit off. If you give some no game sucker a chance to wipe, He's going to go for it.
Dazza (and all the other judges)
I can understand if you mess up the rules, cause you may not be that experienced. I can understand if there arn't that many judges and it's hard to watch all the players,
BUT
WHEN we tell you we shot someone, and where we shot him, GET OFF YOUR @SS AND CHECK HIM!
If you can't run over to a player and check him then you are INCOMPETENT as a judge and should not be on the field!
OK Dazza, there's a few things i want to address:
Anybody with any brains was playing yesterday because the money simply isn't worth it. Shaved monkeys would have been better marshalls than some of the space cases i saw on sunday!
True SOME Pro players suck as marshalls, but 95% of pro, and am A players will do a better job than a bunch of volenteers. They know how they expect to be reffed, and their reputation rest on them doing a good job.
How much training do you need to be able to run in an perform a paint check?
This isn't the first time this is the sixth time. And it's gotten worse not better.
The answer is simple, make it worth the players while to skip a tourney, and marshall instead. Marshalling points, prizes, a decient wage, anything to get good judges. Because without good judging we might as well be playing down at the temple.
Marshalling
Stongle,
If its a good idea i'll take it wherever it comes from lol.
I certainly didn't mean teams should supply mrshalls. If you're talking about marshals team connections, this enable the governing body to assign them to other tournaments or ensure only one 'connected' marshal is on the field.
EZ-R
Stongle,
If its a good idea i'll take it wherever it comes from lol.
I certainly didn't mean teams should supply mrshalls. If you're talking about marshals team connections, this enable the governing body to assign them to other tournaments or ensure only one 'connected' marshal is on the field.
EZ-R