Redux: Gun control meeting in Paris anyone?

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Hearing a gun go "warp speed" during a game, has nothing to do at all with ramping..... ROF is an entirely different matter... if the purpose of this debate is still to get rid of ramping.

When I write "warp speed" or "make the jump to light speed" I mean electronic help getting to ROFs substantially higher than 15bps. I'm talking about guns that I saw last season and as recently as this past weekend that occasionally burst at the rate a modified Halo B will feed (e.g. 30+bps).

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
You have to face facts dude - you are NOT going to get rid of ramping for years.

Maybe not absolutely 100% but I believe we can get close to that.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
The very best you can do, is implementing a set of rules that are simple and easy to enforce....

I agree with you. We need your suggestion PLUS certified, tamper-sealed boards.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
IF - you want to get rid of ramping that is.

Yes, I do (at least that is my opinion now).

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Personally, I think it is the worst idea ever, to get rid of ramping, until you can effectively catch "all" the cheaters..... because you will just return us to a playing field that is much less even than it is now.

I would agree with you if the manufacturers didn't cooperate and things stayed the same because then there would continue to be enough cheaters to upset "the balance in the force". But, with what I'm suggesting, I don't think there would be more than one in thousand (maybe)and that player would be playing Russian Roulette.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Max 15 BPS (heck - you can even drop it to 12 for all I care)
No more than 1 shot after last trigger pull.

Agreed as I wrote above but combined with sealed boards.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Shouldn't that take care of the safety issue?

It will help greatly but I think any ramping, even up to "only" 15bps is not quite safe enough if for no other reason because the user isn't totally in control of her/his gun.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
There is ONLY one way to effectively police a "true semi" policy... and that is to have access to programming on all boards... an no matter what happens, it is going to be more than a couple of years, until the sport is at a place where manufacturers can be forced to accept that.... because right now industry is king in our sport... and not until media coverage and outside sponsors start to dominate, can the paintball industry be forced to do anything they don't want to do.

Disagree. I think what's being suggested here could be in-place in time for the beginning of Season 2006 and would work quite effectively. In informal conversations with a couple of the Top 5 gun manufacturers definite interest was placed in the sealed board idea. That is much preferred to 15bps plus ramping.

Another point is that some key PB moguls are keen on having a totally independent officiating organization in the very near future. They even tried to get it into place in time for this season.
In an environment where the reffing organization knew they were going to get paid regardless of "politically sensitive" decisions balls would tend to grow bigger.

I know that there is a measure of idealistic thinking in this but we've got to start somewhere.

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
...a 15 bps cap combined with a robot type device (nppl style) to catch rampers would put an end to the whole problem.

Colin, that simply is not the case, mon ami. A 15bps cap in the NPPL would help but the robot isn't worth the ground it stands on because of what you wrote below about turning cheats on and off.

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
...Next event, go watch Dynasty or Infamous break out. listen to how insane their guns are. if you cap thier guns at 15 bps, it'll still be a lot of paint, but not that 22-25 bps insane!

More like 30-35bps.

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
...As long as players have modes that enable them to turn cheats on and off at will, they will get away with it...

That's why a robot is useless.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Steve:

Please explain how you will go about having "tamper sealed boards" in our sport?

Because I honestly don't see that happening.......

ANY board wil be programmable - players NEED to be able to set dwell, ROF, etc..... and as soon as you open that door, you also open the door to other forms of programming.

Having accepted that "truth".... you are then putting us in a situation where teams that are "close" with board manufacturers get cheat boards - and the rest of the players do not.... kinda like things were BEFORE ramping was generally allowed

I repeat: There is only ONE way of policing this area, and that is to get access to the programming on every board on the market.... and that is NOT going to happen - no matter how much you want it.... programming is closely guarded secrets, that very few companies in the industry will want to part with - especially when so many events and Series are run by companies that are part of the industry.

It will help greatly but I think any ramping, even up to "only" 15bps is not quite safe enough if for no other reason because the user isn't totally in control of her/his gun.

Please elaborate.

I don't see how a player pulling 15 BPS - or a player pulling 8 and getting 15 - makes any difference safetywise.... the "victim" is still getting hit with 15 BPS.... the KEY is that the gun stops shooting, when the players WANTS it to stop shooting!

I honestly think you have locked your mind a little on this issue, and refuse to consider that you might be looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Rather than making rules based on principles, I think we should make rules based on practicality... because it IS in practical terms they have to work!

Nick

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Please explain how you will go about having "tamper sealed boards" in our sport? ANY board wil be programmable - players NEED to be able to set dwell, ROF, etc..... and as soon as you open that door, you also open the door to other forms of programming.

Nick, you've got a very good point here and I don't know the answer to it. Maybe we would have to have dedicated boards that had some things adjustable but nothing that could make the gun illegal. I simply don't have enough expertise in this area. I don't know why Chicago would suggest this so strongly if he is as technically knowledgeable as I suspect he is. I hope we can get his enlightenment after the Chicago tourney.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Having accepted that "truth".... you are then putting us in a situation where teams that are "close" with board manufacturers get cheat boards - and the rest of the players do not.... kinda like things were BEFORE ramping was generally allowed

Not with what I envision because even those close to manufacturers would be rolling the dice in a very high-stakes game that would have severe consequences on the player(s), team and their gun sponsor. I don't see a problem here.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Please elaborate. I don't see how a player pulling 15 BPS - or a player pulling 8 and getting 15 - makes any difference safetywise.... the "victim" is still getting hit with 15 BPS.... the KEY is that the gun stops shooting, when the players WANTS it to stop shooting!

So the control issue isn't a gigantic safety issue but it is somewhat nevertheless IMO. But what is a potential safety issue is players "pre-shooting" to get their ramp kicked in. In both Millennium events I was hit several times by PBs bouncing their first shots off their own prop for that reason. Not the biggest safety issue but...

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I honestly think you have locked your mind a little on this issue, and refuse to consider that you might be looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Anyone can get blind spots but I have reversed my opinions a number of times as a result of these discussions. I have even changed my mind as a result of some of YOUR arguments, God forbid! I may be deceiving myself but I think I'm about as open-minded as it gets.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Rather than making rules based on principles, I think we should make rules based on practicality... because it IS in practical terms they have to work!

Totally agree. That's why I argued strongly that we couldn't have the same rules and procedures as last season as much as I wanted "true semi" because it was simply inpractical and ineffective.

Even though we're beating the gun issue to death these days expertise about these matters from out there in the ether world is very welcome, especially about the board issue brought up in your (Nick's) post.

 

[Furby]

http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/story041019.php

And the plot thickens...

 

[Red_Merkin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
...As long as players have modes that enable them to turn cheats on and off at will, they will get away with it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's why a robot is useless.

That's why i added this at the end of my post.

As long as players have modes that enable them to turn cheats on and off at will, they will get away with it, unless we also have a rule that states it two refs witness a gun shooting in a mode other than a legal one, and they agree, the player can be pulled.

It does mean that you have to have really good refs, with convictions, and backup from the promoters if the ban a player.

 

[Idealist]

Youre all looking at this from the wrong angle...

Drop the maximium velocity to 200 fps
-minimises injury
-stops people getting shot on the break (better games)
-forces peoplre to play more agressively to get closer so they can hit each other

Enforce fragility tests on the paint being used, at the moment theres nothing to stop you shooting reballs, and leaving exit wounds in people, the more fragile the paint the less damage It'll do
-Reduces injury
-counters the reduced velocity with regards to bounces
(guns will be able to shoot much more fragile paints at reduced velocity)

make the guns full auto un-capped, and remove 'over shooting' rules
-doesnt matter how many time you shoot someone if it cant hurt them
-makes games much more exiting to watch (wanna get on tv?) with people getting hit multiple times
- encourages people to get off the field quick once theyve been hit
-Reduces ability to cheat. Its a lot harder to wipe 50 hits than 2. and its a lot easier to mesure a veloity limit than a rate of fire limit.

People wont want to shoot that much faster anyway, Other wise you be reloading every 5 seconds, literaly.

And while were at it, can the paint colours be standardised to a colour that people arnt alowed to wear.... ffs.

 

[Steve Morris]

Idealist (great name in this context!),

Very interesting and creative approach. It looks like you've done a deal of thinking through issues (or was it eating through a batch of mushrooms?).

I think you're on something, I mean onto something.

Also good point about colors. Since all the major leagues don't allow orange any more it seems to me the smart thing to do is simply choose to shoot orange paint. It really does mark well. But I do suspect that some teams that play in yellow uniforms, especially Infamous, shoot each other before with orange paint before they play so that orange hits are harder to see.

Remember, a mind is a terrible thing...