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Redux: Gun control meeting in Paris anyone?

jotajotaZ

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Feb 7, 2003
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I think Manike already stated somewhere else that there is not a single chance of having one board that will work in any marker (and I believe in his authority on this issue).

If there is no industry support (and real one, no half-assed solutions) with strong punishments for the players *and* the suppliers of the cheating guns the cheats will move from the board to somewhere else in the marker... are you fully stripping a marker to see if it's got some hidden electronics that are adding shots somewhere?
 

JAC

License to paint
Originally posted by chrismrgn
It is a good idea, but then you come across all the markers that dont have chips, and people that are against buying yet another board for their latest gat!
I Completely agree...I for once won't fancy buying another board for my gat!

jotajotaZ: A single board working for all markers would be difficult (not all solenoids work at the same voltage..methinks... ) but I think it could be made. After I saw a Angel IR3 working with a DM4 board with eyes without any board changes I believe almost anything. But even so probaly with 2 or 3 diferent boards at most could do the trick (Of course you have the Grip Size and diferent triggers as a major restriction for working...)

Again industry support would be the best thing...

cheers
JAC
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Jul 9, 2001
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Nick
How many boards with PSP mode do this nowadays?
The ROF Cap work on all of them but how about only one more shot per trigger pull?
I know that EGOs, Timmys, and Angels don't do this for sure ,and even some Matrix don't do this.
To the best of my knowledge, if the rules state no more than one shot after the last trigger pull, ramping will be made impossible.

As I understand it, the key is whether it is trigger pull or trigger release that counts.

Meassuring it is then an entirely different matter ;)

Nick
 

JAC

License to paint
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff

Meassuring it is then an entirely different matter ;)
My thoughts exactly: it would be impossible (never say never ;) but ...) with the present equipment to measure that...
Sometimes guns give one extra shot, sometimes 4 but unless the gun keeps shooting for a second or more it is really hard to decide if it was after thelast trigger pull or release for that matter ;) ...
JAC
 

RoryM

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Jul 23, 2001
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As I suggested a while ago, and I think Chicago said something similar. (here ) sealed board - be they hard cased or shrink wrapped in some form with munufacturer hologram type sticker to prevent tampering should be enough, as long as the manufacturers go along with it. We will then have a problem of a lot of people with older boards which are probably perfectly legal but will have to be sealed/replaced, an expense that will always be met with accusations of profiteering for one section or another! But its a positive step that we may just have to take.

BUT, it will be a small price to pay if we are to remain legal and out of the spotlight of the law makers in the UK who will spoil the game without any second thought if they thought it would by them political credence.

Major punishments for those found to have tampered with their boards and major scrutiny of guns with high penalties for the teams who break the rules, and some action against manufacturers who flout the rules by providing incorrect boards to their sponsored teams.

It may be a bit draconian at first, but get this right, and all the marker registration/owner certs may be avoided, which would require a lot of work,(not by Bully, he does far too much as it is!), and therfore not require the input of historically lazy 'ballers!

Would we all be prepared to go this way if it meant that we all had to shell out a few quid to get ourselves in line this way?
 

Red_Merkin

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Jul 9, 2001
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who the heck to you guys think is making these cheater boards guys?

It's the gun manufacturers themselves! Who do you think puts the breakout mode on Dynasty, Infamous, Philly, or whoever else is using cheater boards?

Sealed boards aren’t going to solve the problem, cause the cheater code is already going to be in there.

Doing a sum check to see if the code is a different size is irrelevant, as the cheat codes can lay latent in proprietary code' that has an 'undisclosed function' (can't give away all the manufacturer's secrets). The code lies latent and innocuous until it's activated by an sequence entered by a privileged player who's been given the secret sequence by the manufacturer.

You are not going to solve this problem by asking the manufacturers to give you sealed boards, as they are the ones supplying the boards.

Nick's option is far better, 15 bps, and no shots after the last shot.

Easy to test for, and no new equipment needed.

Basically we're talking about no ramping, no shot queuing, and a controlled rate of fire.

Also, maybe we need to get some head refs with some balls.

Steve, you're not the right guy to spearhead this, you're too concerned with not upsetting everybody. You're just plain, too nice. It's not a personal attack, it's an observation from working with you for the past 2 years. You can't make everybody happy, the guy you're trying to ban is going to be pissed with you, and his team too, regardless if he's cheating or not! Also Steve, isn't this supposed to be Ulrich's job now?


They have this guy over here in Quebec, who runs open Xball in Quebec. This guy rocks, he has a big ego, and he doesn’t take crap from anybody. He never backs down, if someone steps out of line, they get a penalty, and if they protest, and bring the game into disrepute, the get another penalty. Two weeks ago I watched him send one of the league owner (also a player) to the penalty box for two major penalties, and no amount of kicking and screaming could change anything. The guy's got balls, and his ego is big enough that he never backs down.

That's the kind of guy you need to sort this thing out. Someone who takes real pride in catching cheaters, and someone who thinks like a cheater too. 'Takes a wolf to catch a wolf'.

Steve, I’m glad you raised this thread, it shows that you genuinely care, and that's what people always respected about you (when they weren’t threatening to throw you from the tower ;) ).

answer your main question, I don't think anybody really gives a sh!t about this issue, at least no one who's in a position to do anything about it. As long as the tournaments make money, and no one gets sued, it's not worth the hassle.

I remember Philly saying last year at CC, 'why is everyone trying to bust us all the time? ' It's hard enough for promoters to get American teams to come across the pond, you don't want to deter them by banning them for cheater guns too.

The millennium series, and the NPPL both have to address this issue before they can consider them selves serious competitive sports circuits. At the moment, I suppose they'll just concentrate on the business, cause at the end of the day, that's all this really is.
 

RoryM

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Jul 23, 2001
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Yes Col, you are right about the board provided by the manufacturers being the real masters of deception, until we have the ability to find the cheats and deal with the team effectively, we wil still be chasing shadows sometimes.

How about, (when we can finally find the hidden cheats!)

If a team has been found to use a cheater board, get the promoters to issue a blanket ban for 3 mths or so across all the major leagues, if a manufacturer has a heavily sponsored team not on the curcuit for a long period of time, it must hurt the team in terms of prize money/sponsorship bonuses and the maufacturer in the form of their walking billboards not being out there.

Co-operation on this level by the league organisers would send a strong message to cheaters and the manufacturers that may for once, be noticed.
 

Steve Morris

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Jan 16, 2004
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Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Sealed boards aren’t going to solve the problem, cause the cheater code is already going to be in there...You are not going to solve this problem by asking the manufacturers to give you sealed boards, as they are the ones supplying the boards.
Yes, it can substantially solve the problem if the leagues have the resolve (ballz) to continue to check the guns in-game and apply the commensurate penalties to violators. If everyone is shooting max 15bps and suddenly a gun starts shooting warpspeed don't you think we'll notice? If a gun is measured shooting over the limit then there will be hell to pay and, of course, the scrutineer will certainly find out if the board was tampered with by the player or was illegally released by the manufacturer in which case the gunmaker will be hung out also.
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Nick's option is far better, 15 bps, and no shots after the last shot. Easy to test for, and no new equipment needed.
No way. That is not enough. And how do we check for the last shot rule? With this proposal we won't even need to check as much. Everything should pretty much be locked down and very few will dare to cross the line. Nick's proposal contains the right specifications that the gunmakers will have to follow so that much is right. The gunmakers just have to make damn sure they only release boards that in no way violate the rule specifications.
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Also, maybe we need to get some head refs with some balls....
I think my three children prove that I have functioning testicles...and the fact that I made a stand against cheating guns last season in the midst of a lot of pressure coming from many directions. Remember how many players got suspended at Toulouse last year? (Not that I wanted suspended players; I just wanted a fair and legal playing field.) Also, you have no idea how many hard calls and tough decisions I had to make last season nor how much pressure was brought to bear.
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Steve, you're not the right guy to spearhead this, you're too concerned with not upsetting everybody. You're just plain, too nice. It's not a personal attack, it's an observation from working with you for the past 2 years. You can't make everybody happy, the guy you're trying to ban is going to be pissed with you, and his team too, regardless if he's cheating or not!
If you read the thread-starting post again you'll see that I said I didn't want to nor am I currently in the position to spearhead such an effort. I asked for someone else who is better positioned to do so.

And yes, I do care about what people think about me too much. I'm afraid that it does bother me when people who usually seem to be my friends rake me across the coals because I do my job. But I'm trying to grow tough skin and care a lot less. No more Mr Niceguy!
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Also Steve, isn't this supposed to be Ulrich's job now?
I participate here as an interested person, not as a representative for Millennium, the Northern European Series, PSP or any other league for whom I may work. I think I've made that clear. And what I've suggested is not just for Millennium; it's for the whole bleedin' business.
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
That's the kind of guy you need to sort this thing out. Someone who takes real pride in catching cheaters
I wouldn't want anyone in charge of officiating who "takes pride in catching cheaters" but would rather prefer someone who tried to develop rules, procedures and reffing competence with a focus on detering cheating. Personalities are important but a good system is much more important. If serious players turn up in the kind of environment I would like to see they would be much less inclined to cheat and more inclined to simply use their "real" PB skills. My reffing philosophy in a nutshell.

PS. Rory, I'm sorry I forgot you suggested the sealed board thingy.
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Jul 9, 2001
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Steve:

Hearing a gun go "warp speed" during a game, has nothing to do at all with ramping..... ROF is an entirely different matter... if the purpose of this debate is still to get rid of ramping.

You have to face facts dude - you are NOT going to get rid of ramping for years.

The very best you can do, is implementing a set of rules that are simple and easy to enforce.... and then just shrug off the fact that some WILL find a way around it.

IF - you want to get rid of ramping that is.

Personally, I think it is the worst idea ever, to get rid of ramping, until you can effectively catch "all" the cheaters..... because you will just return us to a playing field that is much less even than it is now.

Max 15 BPS (heck - you can even drop it to 12 for all I care)
No more than 1 shot after last trigger pull

Shouldn't that take care of the safety issue?

What remains is a "moral objection" to ramping..... and while I agree with it, I think it would be more immoral to create a situation where the honest players were penalised, because you couldn't catch the cheaters anyway.

There is ONLY one way to effectively police a "true semi" policy... and that is to have access to programming on all boards... an no matter what happens, it is going to be more than a couple of years, until the sport is at a place where manufacturers can be forced to accept that.... because right now industry is king in our sport... and not until media coverage and outside sponsors start to dominate, can the paintball industry be forced to do anything they don't want to do.

Nick
 

Red_Merkin

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Jul 9, 2001
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Why does everyone say ramping is fine as long as there is no shot after the last trigger pull.


IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A RAMPING GUN TO STOP SHOOTING AFTER THE LAST TRIGGER PULL ONCE THE RAMP IS ENGAGED.

that's the whole point of the ramp, once you reach a specified rof, the ramp kicks in an you get 2-3 extra shots per pull.

if you are going at full ramp, pulling the trigger at 7 bps, and ramping to 15, you're going to get at least 1 extra shot.
if you're pulling at 5bps and ramping at 15, you're going to get 2 extra shots on the last pull.

There is no input to the board telling the gun's brain that a specified pull is the last pull. The input to stop shooting is that the gun has either fired it's last ramping shot (+1 or +2) or a time delay has passed (in the event of shot queing)

a 15 bps cap combined with a robot type device (nppl style) to catch rampers would put an end to the whole problem.

Next event, go watch Dynasty or Infamous break out. listen to how insane their guns are. if you cap thier guns at 15 bps, it'll still be a lot of paint, but not that 22-25 bps insane!

As long as players have modes that enable them to turn cheats on and off at will, they will get away with it, unless we also have a rule that states it two refs witness a gun shooting in a mode other than a legal one, and they agree, the player can be pulled.

It does mean that you have to have really good refs, with convictions, and backup from the promoters if the ban a player.


However, i'm begining to change my stance on the whole matter altogether. Here in Canada, Xball is played with Uncap Ramping. I've seen a few people get 'hurt' from being overshot, but the refs actually pull overshooting penalties, (5 minute major) so players tend to not abuse the privilidge.

I'm starting to see paintball evolve into a 'blood sport' like boxing, or ultimate fighting. May players are taking extra steps to protect themselves, like head protection, and better groin protection.

Maybe the sport is changing in a way that's beyond our control, and it's time to suck it up, and evolve or die.