Question about US vs Europe

[raehl]

There is a difference....

Between a NEW team and a NEW TO NPPL team. That's what I was trying to highlight.

And yes, NPPL/PSP should charge MORE. It doesn't matter that it's expensive. It's SUPPOSED to be expensive. You can only put X number of teams through a facility in 3 days. You set the price level so that only X number of teams can afford to participate, and no one else gets to play. Yes, it's not nice, but it's the way the real world works.

The alternative is NPPL/PSP keep trying to find larger and larger locations that allow them to accomodate the increasing numbers of teams who will play at current pricing. The problem is that as you get larger and larger locations, the quality of the location you can afford gets less and less. Either they start raising prices to limit teams and get better facilities or you can look forward to more Vegas type locations - heat, rocks and blood.

And yes, people *WILL* enter tournaments for NO prizes. People will fly across the country to play in tournaments with no prizes. I play skyball every year with no intention of winning anything. We have college teams fly to tournaments to win a trophy - or just to play. Again, prizes ONLY attract teams that think they're going to win. There are many more teams who are not going to win, and those teams are better attracted by lower entry than a bi prize package they have a miniscule chance of ever winning. This idea that everyone is entitled to play in a national circuit at set pricing is just stupid. Only the *BEST*, as defined by ability to finance the team, should be competing in the national circuit. They don't let just any team play in Pro anything - or even the minors.


By definition, a team is ROOKIE if they have no more than one player who has played NPPL Novice and one player who has played NPPL Amateur, or if they don't have an Amateur, no more than three players who have played NPPL Novice. This straight from Lane, as I had a good conversation with him to be absolutely sure my team was eligible for rookie since while most of us havn't played NPPL before, many of us are going on 4+ years of tourney ball.


And I'm not saying people arn't entitled to play NPPL Novice - I'm just saying that the teams who do so TEND to be seriously involved in playing paintball. And I'm saying that no one has the right to complain about sandbagging. In my opinion, there is no such thing. Either 1) You're losing because you're not good enough to win in the division you're in or 2) You're losing because the prize package in your division is too big for the skill level of the teams in it, attracting teams of a higher skill level.


Again, if you want to play a tournament against other rookie teams, don't offer amateur prizes. If you are saying "I want a tournament with prizes, and I want a rule which says any teams who are good enough to beat me arn't allowed to play", I say you're being silly. New or inexperienced or bad teams don't deserve prizes. They don't deserve to have special classes created for them so they can win prizes or complain when someone better beats them - even if they broke the special rule created so prizes could be awarded only to teams not good enough to win them otherwise. This idea in paintball that every level of team deserves a shot at prizes is stupid. PROS get paid/prizes for playing well. Everyone else gets a trophy. Amateur/Novice *SHOULD* mean "doesn't win crap."


We have a group of teams who are the best, where the top of them get prizes and the bottom get nothing, then we draw a line and now the team that's just slightly worse than the worst of the best teams gets prizes again. Can't anyone else see the stupidity in that?

I'm just sick and tired of hearing people complain that they didn't get prizes because a better team chose not to compete in a higher division. You didn't get prizes because someone was better than you, period. It's your job to beat them, not their job to say "Oh, well, you're worse than we are, so how about we just let you have the prizes and we just go get our asses handed to us in this other division?"

Not going to happen.

- Chris

 

[TJ 2]

After the WC finishes

Lowest ranking four Pros are relegated to Ams, with the top four Ams being promoted to Pros and so on throughout the classes.

It ain't rocket science but it does demand a pair of balls from tha NPPL/PSP...but what happens when one of tha promoters' teams finishes in the bottom four?

We return to the 'too many hats' argument that pops its head up every time you try and get somewhere meaningful in a discussion 'bout tha NPPL, that's what...

 

[Buddha 3]

There is a difference....

Originally posted by raehl


And yes, NPPL/PSP should charge MORE. It doesn't matter that it's expensive. It's SUPPOSED to be expensive. You can only put X number of teams through a facility in 3 days. You set the price level so that only X number of teams can afford to participate, and no one else gets to play. Yes, it's not nice, but it's the way the real world works.

What a load of nonsense!
The solution is much simpler than your overly complicated scheme. If you know that you can only process X number of teams during the course of an event, than cap the registration off when that point is reached! Not that hard, and not as bad for paintball in general. And that's how it works in the real world.

Later!

 

[cjohns]

There is a difference....

Originally posted by raehl

And yes, NPPL/PSP should charge MORE. It doesn't matter that it's expensive. It's SUPPOSED to be expensive. You can only put X number of teams through a facility in 3 days. You set the price level so that only X number of teams can afford to participate, and no one else gets to play. Yes, it's not nice, but it's the way the real world works.


- Chris

Just like Buddha said, that is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard. Are you a politician of paintball? Sure sounds like it to me. The answer is not to charge more. That will just kill the sport and if you have any sense at all, you would know that. The future of paintball lies in the younger pool of players who can barely afford to play, unless they have rich parents who totally support the costs. If you want competition paintball to survive, you sure as hell can't raise prices!!!!!!

 

[Liz]

I agree with CJohns, Buddha3 et al, raising prices would be counterproductive to the sport as a whole. Other sports manage by having a) a cut-off for entries - when they get to "event full" type numbers they just stop accepting entries for that event or b) a qualifyer of some sort. For some sports they have a combination of these, so you have to have qualified in some way to be allowed to enter (either for that event or have reached a certain standard in general) and THEN they just take the first X entries. 3-Day Eventing has a balloting system which works quite well, guaranteeing that if you get ballotted out of X events then you are automatically included at the next one that you are qualified for & want to do. There are many ways of keeping the numbers reasonable, and out-pricing unsponsored teams is NOT the way to go.

I fail to see why you think it's supposed to be expensive - half the problem we are having in the UK in getting Sports Council recognition is that they say it's too expensive, & therefore elitist 'cause younger players & those not in well paying jobs can't compete.
Tell me how much teams are charged to play in events like the NFL, the NHL or the English soccer leagues, or the cricket County Championships? These are premiere competitions in their own sports, so being expensive ISN'T the way the real world works.
How are the non-sponsored teams supposed to get the recognition they need to get the financing to progress to the elite levels in the first place, if they can't afford to play at the "show" events? This path leads to never having up & coming new teams that should be able to compete at the highest level.

 

[Baca Loco]

A funny guy and a politician

Originally posted by raehl
I play skyball every year with no intention of winning anything.


We have college teams fly to tournaments to win a trophy - or just to play. Again, prizes ONLY attract teams that think they're going to win.

I see where our thinking diverges--I don't play any event without the intention of winning regardless of the eventual outcome.
I think perhaps you and Tyger would get along famously.

As to prizes, they entice teams with the possibility of what they might win. Not unlike playing the lottery.

As to NPPL/PSP prize packages--what offends those who are offended isn't so much the quality or lack thereof of the prizes themselves but the perception that the promotors have so little regard for the players who are participating that they'll just toss off any old thing to them and call it a prize.

 

[SuperBeef]

"what offends those who are offended isn't so much the quality or lack thereof of the prizes themselves but the perception that the promotors have so little regard for the players who are participating that they'll just toss off any old thing to them and call it a prize"


Oh dear Baca Loco, I think you are completely wrong.

There is an on going thread on Smack Talk that has teams completely trashing a "preliminary" list of prizes that include Impulses, STO's, loads of paint, etc. The value is over $100,000 MSRP. And yes there are those who even bitch about the fact that MSRP is used in giving the value of the prize package. These ignorant kids seem to think the PSP should do a regional specific black market investigation and post "street value" dollar amounts on the prizes.

I posted a thread earlier about the difference in the US teams vs the Euro teams. Here it is again. The prize package in the states is considerably more substantial than the prize package in the Millennium. Why is there never this outrage from the Euro teams? Maybe there is and I simply don't hear about it.

Now in all honesty, after reading several of the posts on the subject, I believe it to be just one or two guys responponding under several different names. I don't think the majority of the teams are upset to win 10 STO's.

The most ridiculous statements that I see from the US teams is that the Novice teams should get more than the Pro's because they make up the majority of the field. These same people are on the teams that most feel are sandbagging and playing below their rightful class. Under no circumstances do i feel the teams who choose to compete in the lower division should be rewarded more for that decision. Tournaments are competetion after all. But specifically here, where sandbagging is a major issue, it is out of the question to create more incentive to remain in the lower classification.

I got off the subject a bit there, but it all ties together.

 

[Baca Loco]

Smacktalk!?

Originally posted by SuperBeef

1) There is an on going thread on Smack Talk that has teams completely trashing a "preliminary" list of prizes that include Impulses, STO's, loads of paint, etc. The value is over $100,000 MSRP. And yes there are those who even bitch about the fact that MSRP is used in giving the value of the prize package.

2) The prize package in the states is considerably more substantial than the prize package in the Millennium. Why is there never this outrage from the Euro teams?

3) Now in all honesty, after reading several of the posts on the subject, I believe it to be just one or two guys responponding under several different names. I don't think the majority of the teams are upset to win 10 STO's.

4) The most ridiculous statements that I see from the US teams is that the Novice teams should get more than the Pro's because they make up the majority of the field. These same people are on the teams that most feel are sandbagging and playing below their rightful class.

1) believing what is said on SmackTalk is representative of the paintball community is like believing Oliver Stone movies are cinema verite.
2) expectations. you can play local or less prestigious regional events all over the States and compete for more substantial prize packages.
3) those who do complain know--as some of the posts indicated--that the promoters aren't out anything for the prizes they do offer and frequently have no idea what the prizes will be until, Oh, three weeks before the event. Can you say Chitown? As to the prizes themselves the resale cocker market is in serious decline at the moment, the model year of the STO's wasn't stated and I could go on. Things ain't always what they seem or how they are represented--but that's really a separate issue.
4) The teams that are in the hunt every event for the win could absolutely care less about any of the prizes. Would they like a first place prize that managed to cover their expenses? Sure they would but so what? Bottom line is that's not why they're there. Find me a quote from any member of any team that made the Nov finals this year or last whining about the prizes. Good luck.

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by SuperBeef


The most ridiculous statements that I see from the US teams is that the Novice teams should get more than the Pro's because they make up the majority of the field.

Well, there is something to be said for that. I'm not saying that it needs to be that way, I don't give a rat's behind, but I'd say that a novice team can find better use for ten STO's than a pro team with sponsorship coming out of their ears. It's not like they'll give up their sponsored whatever it is they're shooting, just because they won some toys. Those markers'll end up on the big pile of stuff they don't do much with. If you look at it like that, than I can see why some people are inclined to think that way.

 

[Mark]

By definition, a team is ROOKIE if they have no more than one player who has played NPPL Novice and one player who has played NPPL Amateur, or if they don't have an Amateur, no more than three players who have played NPPL Novice. This straight from Lane, as I had a good conversation with him to be absolutely sure my team was eligible for rookie since while most of us havn't played NPPL before, many of us are going on 4+ years of tourney ball. posted by raehl


So you wanted to play at a level that by your own previous posting would make you count as a "sandbagger"?

I agree that this thread does appear to look like a one or two person posting from some of the "informed" postings (Baca Loco is off the hook now, if only cos they are a Mod now)

A thought, although this thread is in the Tournament forum (a lot of people don't read this section), can this thread be duplicated in the Speak your brains as well..Mods?