Question about US vs Europe

[SuperBeef]

I recently took the time to look at the way teams broke down as far as classifications were concerned for MAJOR events that allowed Pro teams.

The ratio of pro to amateur to Novice/Am B/Rookie is pretty skewed when you compare the major Euro tourneys to the US tourneys.

It is typical for the pro class to comprise on 10-12% of the total field, Amateur 13-17%, and Novice 68-78% in the US. In Europe it is generally 14-20% Pro, 34-37% Am, and 45-50% Novice.

Now this was no scientific analysis, and my numbers may be a bit out of sorts, but they are close.

I realize more US pro and amateur teams come to Millenium event, than Euro teams go to NPPL events. But even if you ttok those teams out, the ratio is still pretty lopsided.

Just a curious observation. Any insight?

Are the typical US teams really the sandbaggers we read about? Are the US Pro teams so superior they are keeping the other teams down? Are Americans basically out to get all they can at the lowest level possible by ruling, therefore forsaking real competition in order to gain fame and fortune?

Give me some feed back. Robbo, TJ, Baca Loco -- any thoughts.

 

[Buddha 3]

The answer to your final question is no. There is no fame (or very little at most) to be had from winning a Novice thing. Sure, you'll get a mention in a mag, but that's about it. It'll get you sponsorship perhaps, but your sponsor will sooner or later start demanding that you move up a notch.
What I think the reason for the number of Novice teams in the US is, is simple. There are a whole lot more players in the US, and the number of people who decide to pick up tourney ball as a sport is also greater, both in numbers and in percentage. Since you get so many people picking up paintball, you'll have a lot of novice teams. Only a fraction of the novice teams can actually move up the ladder to Am status (let alone Pro), for the simple reasons that players may not have the time to train as much as is needed to go Am/Pro, or the finances (no sponsorship) and so on. Think about it, how many highschool football teams are there, and how many NFL teams?
I'd say that this lobsidedness is actually a sign that the sport is healthier in th US than here in Europe (as far as people playing is concerned). The Novice league is the foundation on which the future is built, so the more there are of those, the healthier a sport is, and will be in the future.

 

[Baca Loco]

Frankly i think the Euros are in more trouble than ever

but to answer your questions in order:
No
No
No
OK, I'll elaborate a bit. At the NPPL/PSP level sandbagging isn't really an issue despite the periodic squawking. I would say it's really the reverse. Close to half the Am bracket doesn't belong there while there are a number of Novs who probably could move up and be competitive. It's a tricky balancing act. Besides, the only real incentive to move up other than bragging rights is sponsorship issues and most of the time and with most teams you have to build up to it. (The prizes are generally not a big deal as plenty of lesser events have equal or better prize packages.)So too, the days when nobody paid any attention to any but a handful of teams. If you're on the circuit you know who the dangerous teams are regardless of division.
However, at regional or local events sandbagging is sometimes an issue and that's mostly about scooping up the prizes.

Once upon a time the US Pro teams were so superior. They are less so today relative to the other teams out there. (Pro teams almost routinely get knocked off by Novs nowadays in games they--the Pros--can't really afford to lose.)

The factor that has skewed your numbers is the veritable explosion of Nov teams in the last 2 years. Discounting WC the average NPPL turnout was approx. 55-60 teams an event in 2000. Last year it jumped to 75-80 and this year it's over 100 so far. That is a huge influx of new, untried teams.
As to the fame and fortune how many Nov teams get write ups in PGI? How many of their players names do you know? Is 10 Piranhas and a box of assorted junk your idea of a fortune?
Smart teams know you have to be moving forward to maintain morale and build confidence. they also know what kind of an economic committment is required for the whole year. I'm sure all of them intend to reach the highest heights possible and are each trying to balance progress with reality.

BTW, that same explosion in Nov teams is why the Euros are in trouble. Never before has the US fielded so many teams that will have such a volume of top notch competition under their collective belts.

 

[SuperBeef]

Jeez Budha

I try to start a sleezy mudslinging thread, try to get a little life into the board, try to stir the pot and get some people jumping and you shoot the whole effort down with reason and logic.

Do you actually play tournament paintball? Being reasonable, logical, thoughtful, and basically avoiding the temptation to jump on every possible cause that bashes all teams other than your own is grounds for being thrown out of tournament paintball you know. At least I think that is the case. I think I read that somewhere or something.

Actually - i think you hit the nail on the head. But I do believe there is more of an attitude of playing down a level and going for the cash in the States, that isn't as prevalent in the Milleniums. Euro teams seem to be a bit more ready to step up to the plate so to speak, than the US teams.

Overall - I think the real problem is with the Ams (Trauma, Naughty Dogs, Farside, etc) who won't step up that starts the bad things. If those guys move up and take their lumps for a year, the upper Novs could move up and make the class more in line with it's intended purpose. New Teams.

But, thanks for the response, even though you killed the thread

 

[Buddha 3]

Sorry....how's this?

USA SUCKS! UZBEKISTAN PAINTBALL KICKS MIGHTY ASS!

 

[Baca Loco]

Jeez Beef

Originally posted by SuperBeef

Overall - I think the real problem is with the Ams (Trauma, Naughty Dogs, Farside, etc) who won't step up that starts the bad things. If those guys move up and take their lumps for a year, the upper Novs could move up and make the class more in line with it's intended purpose. New Teams.

Trauma has just played Am for a year including LA and Vegas this year. Dogs lost a number of players in off season including 2 to SC and Farside roster hasn't been a model of unwavering stability either. Present or past success don't guarantee future success. Now ask yourself what do my sponsors want? A regular finals Am team to boost or a back of the pack Pro team everybody ridicules? Becomes a tougher question.
Having said that I do think there ought to be some mechanism that moves teams up and down depending on results.

 

[raehl]

My thoughts:

New teams in NPPL Novice?

HAH!

A NPPL/PSP tournament runs $300-500 per player per event, closer to $600-$1000 when you add in travel, lodging, food, $3 water (If you're not smart enough to go down the street to walmart and get your own), and other incidentals.

If you're playing NPPL, you are by definition either 1) Filthy rich or 2) Definitely *NOT* a "new" team (or at least not a team of new players). Saying Novice NPPL is an indication of new teams getting into the game is like saying college football is an indication of new teams getting into football. The influx generally happens WAY before NPPL at local 3 and 5 man tournaments, plus a little high school and college ball where it's available. By the time you have someone taking tournament paintball seriously enough to shell out $5k a year to play the whole NPPL series, you're way past casual players.

I'd say that NPPL/PSP needs to stop trying to be all things to all people and hike up their entry fees a bit to keep event attendence at reasonable levels (and thus make running the event on schedule easier). Supply and demand. This mentality that every tournament needs to have a prize package or that every team should have sponsors is silly. MOST paintball players should be playing in local leagues with local (read: local business) sponsors, like every other sport in this country. NPPL shouldn't make room for people who arn't playing SERIOUS paintball, people who arn't playing SERIOUS paintball shouldn't (and at $1k/event, almost certainly arn't) play NPPL, period.


I'd say the reason there's a greater portion of Novice players in the US is that there is simply more teams here competing. A team will move up a division when they think it's likely that it'll cost them less money to play in the upper division (due to prizes and increased sponsorship). Unfortunately, there is a finite amount of prizes and sponsors, so if all the pro-level sponsorships are already taken, it doesn't matter how many Am teams you have, no other Am's are going to move up because they'd just be paying more entry for a smaller chance at winning prizes. Same with Am's and Novices - there are only so many am-level sponsorships out there, so people are only going to move up from nov to am when the sponsorship increase they get from doing so balances out the likelyhood that they lose the novice prizes.

But anyway, I think this notion that NPPL/PSP should have a division for new players/teams to play in is silly. If you're team isn't up for the level of play in the Novice division of NPPL - don't go. It's your job to get better, not the leagues job to create a league you can win in.


As for local tournaments, if you're going to give out thousands of dollars in prizes, expect them to attract teams to win them. The bigger the prize, the more worthwhile the tournament gets to better and better teams (and the less worthwhile it gets to everyone else). This whole idea that you can say "$10k in prizes - but only for teams that arn't any good!" and then not have teams that ARE good decide to play is just ridiculous.

Prizes only attract the few teams that think they're going to win them - they do nothing to attract teams that arn't planning on winning (or worse, just get players who thought the rules protected them from better players and planned on winning because of it pissed when better players show up.)

If you want to run a tournament for newbie teams, DON'T GIVE OUT AMATEUR PRIZES!

- Chris

 

[raehl]

...

All teams in NPPL/PSP *ARE* at the right level. No team should feel obligated to move up just because a team that's worse than they are bitches that they're not good enough to win prizes with those other better teams in their division.

NEWSFLASH:

Everyone who loses lost because the other teams in the division didn't move up. Your inability to win is not an obligation for other teams to get out of your way.


Harsh, but true.


(And no, this isn't really directed at anyone in particular.)

- Chris

 

[Baca Loco]

My thoughts:

Originally posted by raehl
New teams in NPPL Novice?

If you're playing NPPL, you are by definition either 1) Filthy rich or 2) Definitely *NOT* a "new" team (or at least not a team of new players). Saying Novice NPPL is an indication of new teams getting into the game is like saying college football is an indication of new teams getting into football. The influx generally happens WAY before NPPL at local 3 and 5 man tournaments, plus a little high school and college ball where it's available- Chris

Maybe in your world novice players are casual players but not in mine. A matter of semantics.

Do you prefer teams "new to" the NPPL? Novice does not in this case denote inexperience except in as much as a "Novice team" may have, and probably does have, very limited experience competing in the 10-man format.
So what do you call 50 Novice teams playing NPPL now that weren't playing 2 years ago?

The NPPL/PSP is simply the baseline for paintball excellence in the US and more and more teams in a big way are measuring themselves against the best competition available.

 

[Mark]

My thoughts:

Originally posted by raehl
New teams in NPPL Novice?

HAH!

A NPPL/PSP tournament runs $300-500 per player per event, closer to $600-$1000 when you add in travel, lodging, food, $3 water (If you're not smart enough to go down the street to walmart and get your own), and other incidentals.

If you're playing NPPL, you are by definition either 1) Filthy rich or 2) Definitely *NOT* a "new" team (or at least not a team of new players). Saying Novice NPPL is an indication of new teams getting into the game is like saying college football is an indication of new teams getting into football. The influx generally happens WAY before NPPL at local 3 and 5 man tournaments, plus a little high school and college ball where it's available. By the time you have someone taking tournament paintball seriously enough to shell out $5k a year to play the whole NPPL series, you're way past casual players.

I'd say that NPPL/PSP needs to stop trying to be all things to all people and hike up their entry fees a bit to keep event attendence at reasonable levels (and thus make running the event on schedule easier). Supply and demand. This mentality that every tournament needs to have a prize package or that every team should have sponsors is silly. MOST paintball players should be playing in local leagues with local (read: local business) sponsors, like every other sport in this country. NPPL shouldn't make room for people who arn't playing SERIOUS paintball, people who arn't playing SERIOUS paintball shouldn't (and at $1k/event, almost certainly arn't) play NPPL, period.


I'd say the reason there's a greater portion of Novice players in the US is that there is simply more teams here competing. A team will move up a division when they think it's likely that it'll cost them less money to play in the upper division (due to prizes and increased sponsorship). Unfortunately, there is a finite amount of prizes and sponsors, so if all the pro-level sponsorships are already taken, it doesn't matter how many Am teams you have, no other Am's are going to move up because they'd just be paying more entry for a smaller chance at winning prizes. Same with Am's and Novices - there are only so many am-level sponsorships out there, so people are only going to move up from nov to am when the sponsorship increase they get from doing so balances out the likelyhood that they lose the novice prizes.

But anyway, I think this notion that NPPL/PSP should have a division for new players/teams to play in is silly. If you're team isn't up for the level of play in the Novice division of NPPL - don't go. It's your job to get better, not the leagues job to create a league you can win in.


As for local tournaments, if you're going to give out thousands of dollars in prizes, expect them to attract teams to win them. The bigger the prize, the more worthwhile the tournament gets to better and better teams (and the less worthwhile it gets to everyone else). This whole idea that you can say "$10k in prizes - but only for teams that arn't any good!" and then not have teams that ARE good decide to play is just ridiculous.

Prizes only attract the few teams that think they're going to win them - they do nothing to attract teams that arn't planning on winning (or worse, just get players who thought the rules protected them from better players and planned on winning because of it pissed when better players show up.)

If you want to run a tournament for newbie teams, DON'T GIVE OUT AMATEUR PRIZES!

- Chris

Ok couldn't be arsed to edit most of your post out but I'll try and answer the bits I want to... Put the prices up !!!!! what planet are you on, its expensive enough without shouting "we wanna play but charge us more !!"

Prize packages are always gonna be there but are you seriuosly gonna enter a tourny to get a free meal at Bucking Bronco's Steak house (sorry if the place actually exists) and this would fit in with your "local" sponsors idea.

By definition, a team who enters their first NPPL/PSP event is NEW unless they have 2 or more members who have already played in NPPL/PSP events at whatever level then they are fully entitled to take their place in the Novice division

So perhaps what you really mean is a renaming of the brackets to Division Two, Division One, Premier League (seem to think I heard that list somewhere before) then that would satisfy your need for the teams to gain their expirience and then legitamately step up to the plate in the NPPL/PSP.

As a side note this seems a "new" member syndrome posting.