My suggestions for gun control...

[manike]

My suggestion is:-

1) No accidental multiple shots. So anything a judge can do to get a multiple shot accidentally and obviously (not when firing a string because he can't realy tell) is allowed. This will stop bouncy triggers and stupid light triggers. NO FA at any point where you can hold the trigger and it keeps firing.

2) as long as someone is pulling the trigger and balls don't continue to obviously fly after they have stopped then this is ok within a string. You have to keep walking the trigger.

3) use radar guns to watch velocity.

4) Use robby the robot to pick up bouncy guns which may be dangerous. He won't catch intentional cheater code so expect that to become the norm very rapidly (what you think it isn't?) Cheater code needs to turn itself off in the time it takes a judge to take the gun from me and test it. get caught, pay the penalty.

I think that's as much as you can hope to enforce.

It would be safer, there would be less accidental discharges and you aren't making rules you can't enforce.

As long as no human or robot can legitimately detect an extra shot (i.e. hid it from the authorities) then what else can we do? We can't stop the cheats that's for sure.

This way I think everyone will soon be able to play on a level field (albeit cheating compared to where we were)...

If we are going to cap the rof then I suggest 20bps as a maximum allowable time between shots. This is comparable to what we have right now anyway. IN effect because this is the time between two shots and not an average you will actually see the real rof drop with a true semi... but if we allow anything goes in a string you won't. It will be very similar to what we get now.

So what do the rest of the masses think?

I think the time has come to develop an enforceable set of rules that doesn't hinder the teams who don't want to cheat. Right now the favour is with the cheats and that's wrong.

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by manike

If we are going to cap the rof then I suggest 20bps as a maximum allowable time between shots.

You mean minimum time don't you?

As for the rest - I agree but it's late and I'll post longer tomorrow.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Beaker
You mean minimum time don't you?

As for the rest - I agree but it's late and I'll post longer tomorrow.

Kind of, I mean the maximum allowable rof by measuring the time between two shots. I didn't write it all that clearly.

Thus two shots can not allow a time that gives a rof over 20bps.

"20Bps being the maxium rof allowed via the measurement of time between any two shots. (obviously this relates to a time between shots of 50ms or more)."

 

[Beaker]

Thats what I thought you meant.

And at a 20bps ROF I can't see many "fast fingered" legal shooters getting caught out, at 15bps you might get the odd one or two but as we've talked about before - not the numbers of people that claim catergorically they do over 20bps whenever they want legally

 

[RoryM]

How about getting the manufacturers to come out with tamper proof boards? (i.e sealed unit) and random checks throughout tournaments at chrono stations. If the player is found to have a programmable board, team goes home.

If a munufacturer creates cheat units under the guise of the sealed units - manufacturers markers are barred for the reamaining season.

This is just a quick idea and obviously will be ripped apart/flamed from here on, but if we punish the creators as well as the users, maybe more control will be observed by all.


Discuss......

 

[A.B]

It's a real tinder box all this- i agree with your suggestions manike and in your position i'm sure you have forgotten more about gun software than i could ever hope to know- Your first point is the only one i have trouble in seeing realised- before a rule like this can be made it must be CLEARLY defined as to whether a marker is double shooting due to a fault/poorly set up trigger or whether this is an intentional cheat etc.

My suggestion would be to firstly accept that bounce is an inherent fault with all e markers- they will all do it in the right circumstances.

To ensure that feather triggers are not permitted- the slap on the back of the tank seems adequete for this.

To accept that if a gun bounces that the bounce is not capable of making the marker fire quicker than 10BPS ( a suggestion) - therefore most if not all players can walk their triggers faster than this and this would mean that the bounce is not an unfair advantage to the player.

To finally clear up whether a gun reciprocating and causing the trigger to be fired and reset then re-fired by holding the gun in the same place IS actually bounce- i don't think it is as the trigger has had to have had a force exerted on it to fire the gun.

I realise my proposed idea would cause some problems especially with the grey area that markers are in within the UK- but....

what do you think?

A.B

 

[Gyroscope]

A-B-

I don't see how you can limit bouncing guns to 10 bps and fire faster than that walking. Bounce and pulling the trigger are indistinguishable to the switch, no?

 

[A.B]

and thats the point- bounce unless it's a mechanical fault IS a trigger pull! although i don't know the science- it appears that when my old gun used to bounce it was slower than when it was walked- can anyone explain this?

A.B

 

[John C]

Originally posted by manike
My suggestion is:-

1) No accidental multiple shots. So anything a judge can do to get a multiple shot accidentally and obviously (not when firing a string because he can't realy tell) is allowed. This will stop bouncy triggers and stupid light triggers. NO FA at any point where you can hold the trigger and it keeps firing.

2) as long as someone is pulling the trigger and balls don't continue to obviously fly after they have stopped then this is ok within a string. You have to keep walking the trigger.

3) use radar guns to watch velocity.

4) Use robby the robot to pick up bouncy guns which may be dangerous. He won't catch intentional cheater code so expect that to become the norm very rapidly (what you think it isn't?) Cheater code needs to turn itself off in the time it takes a judge to take the gun from me and test it. get caught, pay the penalty.

I think that's as much as you can hope to enforce.

It would be safer, there would be less accidental discharges and you aren't making rules you can't enforce.

As long as no human or robot can legitimately detect an extra shot (i.e. hid it from the authorities) then what else can we do? We can't stop the cheats that's for sure.

This way I think everyone will soon be able to play on a level field (albeit cheating compared to where we were)...

If we are going to cap the rof then I suggest 20bps as a maximum allowable time between shots. This is comparable to what we have right now anyway. IN effect because this is the time between two shots and not an average you will actually see the real rof drop with a true semi... but if we allow anything goes in a string you won't. It will be very similar to what we get now.

So what do the rest of the masses think?

I think the time has come to develop an enforceable set of rules that doesn't hinder the teams who don't want to cheat. Right now the favour is with the cheats and that's wrong.

Whilst this would change the state of many peoples markers it isnt going to reduce the amount of 'help' players get from their guns. It doesnt do anything to combat the legal issues we have to face either.


People will stop using bouce as an excuse to get a higher ROF but only because you have provided them with a better alternative.

All they will do is find a level which can be attained by walking the trigger (say 12bps) and when you are hitting this level or above the gun just jumps up to its max rate of fire, either the imposed 20bps cap or the feed rate of the hopper.

This level will be used in exactly the same way as debouce is currently. Make the level adjustabe, give it a fancy name and you have an extra feature on your gun!

The refs cant be expected to find extra shots at these speeds but just saying "anything goes" isnt a good solution.


Also I dont really se the point of limiting the ROF, since most hoppers dont feed more than 20 or so.


But I do applaud you for creating the first realistically enforcable marker rules.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
My suggestion is:-

1) No accidental multiple shots. So anything a judge can do to get a multiple shot accidentally and obviously (not when firing a string because he can't realy tell) is allowed. This will stop bouncy triggers and stupid light triggers. NO FA at any point where you can hold the trigger and it keeps firing.

2) as long as someone is pulling the trigger and balls don't continue to obviously fly after they have stopped then this is ok within a string. You have to keep walking the trigger.

3) use radar guns to watch velocity.

4) Use robby the robot to pick up bouncy guns which may be dangerous. He won't catch intentional cheater code so expect that to become the norm very rapidly (what you think it isn't?) Cheater code needs to turn itself off in the time it takes a judge to take the gun from me and test it. get caught, pay the penalty.

I agree with Simon but feel this must be added:

5) Cap the ROF to 15 and enforce it with a ball-count instrument. (just like NXL)

This is the way it is likely to in European PB next season; maybe elsewhere.

When I observed an NXL game up close after reffing about 30 Division X Ball games it was clear that NXL was obviously slower. In fact I never saw a player using the allowable FA. The game didn't seem to suffer for the slower guns. And players told me they are glad to get a level playing field concerning guns.

Steve