Honestly it's all about the first quote. That's the reaction they, the TERRORISTS, want. Pure and simple.
London attacks - what's going on???
- Thread starter Ben Frain
- Start date
Weird... I agree with Mark.
Islamic Fundamentalist recruiters have cited all kinds of perfidy on the part of the west to justify their sort of violence and destruction. If the US and Britain hadn't deposed Saddam, the recruiters would have milked Palestine, if we turned our backs on Israel, they would be chanting Andalusia. No kidding, O. B. Laden actually calls for revenge against the political decendants of Ferdinand from time to time.
Islamic Fundamentalist recruiters have cited all kinds of perfidy on the part of the west to justify their sort of violence and destruction. If the US and Britain hadn't deposed Saddam, the recruiters would have milked Palestine, if we turned our backs on Israel, they would be chanting Andalusia. No kidding, O. B. Laden actually calls for revenge against the political decendants of Ferdinand from time to time.
The real problem is poverty.
It's all about perspective.
Let's say you live in a third world country. The only thing you can really do in your country is agriculture. A living wage in your country is $10 per month. If you work hard at farming with your family, you can produce a ton of agricultural product per year which you can sell for $100, so you are stuck in abject poverty.
If you live in the US, you are a farmer who can produce 100 tons of agricultural product, but it costs you $100,000 to do it, leaving you with no money. But fortunately for you, you're a landowner in the US, so the government gives you another $50,000 so you can stay in business.
That's the world we live in. Even though 3rd world countries prodice agrcultural produc cheaper (on a per volume basis) than we do, we take tax payer dollars and subsidize our own farmers, creating extra supply and articifially suppressing the price of agriculutral products, insuring that the 3rd world stays in abject poverty.
And when you are stuck in abject poverty, when the local fundamentalist comes along preaching holy war, that looks a lot more attractive than slaving at the farm.
Terrorism is a produt of poverty. Poverty is a product of western agricultural policy. It's all terrorism - we just use economics, and we're a lot more effective.
As a society, we've decided that it's better to sacrifice a few of our citizens t terrorism than to force our citizens to compete on a level playing field economically.
It's all about perspective.
Let's say you live in a third world country. The only thing you can really do in your country is agriculture. A living wage in your country is $10 per month. If you work hard at farming with your family, you can produce a ton of agricultural product per year which you can sell for $100, so you are stuck in abject poverty.
If you live in the US, you are a farmer who can produce 100 tons of agricultural product, but it costs you $100,000 to do it, leaving you with no money. But fortunately for you, you're a landowner in the US, so the government gives you another $50,000 so you can stay in business.
That's the world we live in. Even though 3rd world countries prodice agrcultural produc cheaper (on a per volume basis) than we do, we take tax payer dollars and subsidize our own farmers, creating extra supply and articifially suppressing the price of agriculutral products, insuring that the 3rd world stays in abject poverty.
And when you are stuck in abject poverty, when the local fundamentalist comes along preaching holy war, that looks a lot more attractive than slaving at the farm.
Terrorism is a produt of poverty. Poverty is a product of western agricultural policy. It's all terrorism - we just use economics, and we're a lot more effective.
As a society, we've decided that it's better to sacrifice a few of our citizens t terrorism than to force our citizens to compete on a level playing field economically.
The real problem is poverty.
Mmmm, I'm afraid that theory seems a little 'thin'. For example, how do you explain the on going tensions between India (Hindu/Sikkh) and Pakistan (Muslim) - you can't tell me that's all the fault of western farmers too?
Ben Frain - I belive that the best way to manage the situation now is to be a little more sensitive to the countries and their cultures that we invade.
The war in Iraq is not about Al Quaeda. The term itself wasn't even coined until after 9/11 and it was first used by the American administration and then by Osama as a fantastic piece of propaganda.
The problem that we have is that for the media and the government it is far easier to peddle a single movement and threat than a large number of different organisations and groups with different agendas and objectives. This also feeds into the hands of the terrorists as a recruiting tool.
The second problem that we have is that this isnt a religious conflict. The roots of this stem from the Soviet war in Afghanistan when the western governments royally shafted the very people we had promised to protect. They fought a war for us and we promised them aid to deal with the famine caused by the Soviet destruction of crops and farm animals. We didnt deliver and let 3 million people starve. The very people we trained and used became a little miffed at this and began a campaign to rid the middle east of the influence of western powers. This started in egypt and was in fact particularly unsuccessful. Foreign acts of terrorism by these groups, although killing many people were politically useless as they had very little effect on the larger global picture. Then the tragedy of 9/11 happened and the world changed. In a single act the world and its political leaning moved over to a far more right wing attitude. The terrorists had finally managed to make a global political statement.
The American administration was quick to act and coined the term Al Quaeda. This was also great for them since a war is a great way of focussing attention away from a cripling economic down turn. However, the moment the western powers (im not just gonna pick on America) started calling this a war on islamic extremists and islamic terrorism we lost the hearts and minds of the very people we need on our side.
The terrorists are now able to use these terms as an example of how the muslims of the world are being singled out and the need for muslims to rise up against it. Religion has always been a massively powerful recruiting tool when used on dissenfranchised youths that have little or no long term economic or sociological prospects. Just look at the succes of christian cults around the world. the power of God, whoever's it is cannot be underestimated. The terrorists are accutely aware of this.
So it is very easy for these people whose objectives have nothing to do with the Islamic faith to recruit young dissilusioned males to their cause. All the time the media tarnish the muslim community with the tag of terrorism then we can never win.
The war in Iraq is not about Al Quaeda. The term itself wasn't even coined until after 9/11 and it was first used by the American administration and then by Osama as a fantastic piece of propaganda.
The problem that we have is that for the media and the government it is far easier to peddle a single movement and threat than a large number of different organisations and groups with different agendas and objectives. This also feeds into the hands of the terrorists as a recruiting tool.
The second problem that we have is that this isnt a religious conflict. The roots of this stem from the Soviet war in Afghanistan when the western governments royally shafted the very people we had promised to protect. They fought a war for us and we promised them aid to deal with the famine caused by the Soviet destruction of crops and farm animals. We didnt deliver and let 3 million people starve. The very people we trained and used became a little miffed at this and began a campaign to rid the middle east of the influence of western powers. This started in egypt and was in fact particularly unsuccessful. Foreign acts of terrorism by these groups, although killing many people were politically useless as they had very little effect on the larger global picture. Then the tragedy of 9/11 happened and the world changed. In a single act the world and its political leaning moved over to a far more right wing attitude. The terrorists had finally managed to make a global political statement.
The American administration was quick to act and coined the term Al Quaeda. This was also great for them since a war is a great way of focussing attention away from a cripling economic down turn. However, the moment the western powers (im not just gonna pick on America) started calling this a war on islamic extremists and islamic terrorism we lost the hearts and minds of the very people we need on our side.
The terrorists are now able to use these terms as an example of how the muslims of the world are being singled out and the need for muslims to rise up against it. Religion has always been a massively powerful recruiting tool when used on dissenfranchised youths that have little or no long term economic or sociological prospects. Just look at the succes of christian cults around the world. the power of God, whoever's it is cannot be underestimated. The terrorists are accutely aware of this.
So it is very easy for these people whose objectives have nothing to do with the Islamic faith to recruit young dissilusioned males to their cause. All the time the media tarnish the muslim community with the tag of terrorism then we can never win.
imho , and i'm not even going anywhere the race/colour/religion issue. wtf are british citizens doing blowing up fellow countrymen/women.
surely the british government could crack down on people visiting the areas where terroist traing camps are based.
i feel that there will probably big backlashes againt the communities that these people came from and feel sorry for all the innocent people that will be affected by the backlashes.
surely the british government could crack down on people visiting the areas where terroist traing camps are based.
i feel that there will probably big backlashes againt the communities that these people came from and feel sorry for all the innocent people that will be affected by the backlashes.
This isn't a new problem - look at the Crusades, we really made friends with a few people then and have continued on a similar agenda ever since.
Don't think this is a new thing...
Don't think this is a new thing...
I disagree Chicago. I think current Muslim fundamentalism is being fuelled by a fear of change.
Recruiters will target poverty stricken communities but it is not poverty that motivates islamists. The problem is that their will always be poverty as there will always be conflict. These are not concepts we are going to eradicate from the planet. There will always be poor communities that recruiters can turn to. Saudis are major sponsors and supporters of islamist terrorism and they don't qualify as poor. And if it was about poverty how come black Africans, aren’t blowing themselves up in London subways? Is it a coincidence that it’s just Muslims?
Islamists are afraid of the reforms the western world is bringing into the Middle East. And its not always by force, it’s mostly from the inside, winning the hearts and minds of the youth that look to a better future, where women will be allowed to learn how to read, won’t be stoned to death for any unfounded accusation of adultery, your hand won’t be chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread etc…. We are talking about democracy, women's rights, state of law, separating state and religion!
The fundamentalist Mullahs like any other elite don't want to give away their power so they will use any means available to stay in place. So they interpret the Koran in ways that will favour their cause and freak people out by telling them that the Western infidels are here to destroy islam. So no wonder everybody is chanting death to the US and the Brits. Now any pretext is good to go blow up civilians in Paris, London, New York, Madrid etc.... It’s not about Iraq. Half of these Mullahs would have ousted Saddam themselves if given the chance (he was the king of infidels). These guys were killing people in Paris, Bali and New York long before Iraq.
They say people tend to judge others the way they judge themselves: a thief will always think everybody is out to rob him. Well maybe it’s because guys like the Brothers of Islam want to create a Pan-Islamic society that they are freaked out that we want to do the same.
Islamists today are afraid of change. Look at all the reasons the insurgents are giving for their attacks in Iraq. They say the US and UK are there to destroy Islam which is BS. And who is behind these attacks? Sunnite fanatics that were in power during Saddam’s regime(back to elites trying to stay in control). You don’t see the Kurds or the Shiites blowing themselves up? They just don't want any reforms coming into the country. And they are afraid that the change will be to the image of the leading economies like that of US, Europe and Asia where liberalism is wide spread. Problem is that with the current communication tools like internet, and sattelite tv, how easy it is to travel, and all their kids going to university in the US, Canada, Uk.... word is getting out... I'm pretty sure the next generation of kids will want to bring on change reflecting what they discovered abroad, at least to a certain extent. The old farts in power don't like that. So they terrorise everybody. Because they aren’t just trying to terrorize us, they are also intimidating their compatriots who might start wanting to change things from the inside. If they will do that to foreigners abroad, what will they do to me?
What really shocks me is that the suspected bombers for the London attacks were born in the UK. They were born in this country, how can they have been brought up with such hatred for it. What kind of community brings their children up with precepts that can convince them that blowing their neighbours up in a subway will further their cause?
Recruiters will target poverty stricken communities but it is not poverty that motivates islamists. The problem is that their will always be poverty as there will always be conflict. These are not concepts we are going to eradicate from the planet. There will always be poor communities that recruiters can turn to. Saudis are major sponsors and supporters of islamist terrorism and they don't qualify as poor. And if it was about poverty how come black Africans, aren’t blowing themselves up in London subways? Is it a coincidence that it’s just Muslims?
Islamists are afraid of the reforms the western world is bringing into the Middle East. And its not always by force, it’s mostly from the inside, winning the hearts and minds of the youth that look to a better future, where women will be allowed to learn how to read, won’t be stoned to death for any unfounded accusation of adultery, your hand won’t be chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread etc…. We are talking about democracy, women's rights, state of law, separating state and religion!
The fundamentalist Mullahs like any other elite don't want to give away their power so they will use any means available to stay in place. So they interpret the Koran in ways that will favour their cause and freak people out by telling them that the Western infidels are here to destroy islam. So no wonder everybody is chanting death to the US and the Brits. Now any pretext is good to go blow up civilians in Paris, London, New York, Madrid etc.... It’s not about Iraq. Half of these Mullahs would have ousted Saddam themselves if given the chance (he was the king of infidels). These guys were killing people in Paris, Bali and New York long before Iraq.
They say people tend to judge others the way they judge themselves: a thief will always think everybody is out to rob him. Well maybe it’s because guys like the Brothers of Islam want to create a Pan-Islamic society that they are freaked out that we want to do the same.
Islamists today are afraid of change. Look at all the reasons the insurgents are giving for their attacks in Iraq. They say the US and UK are there to destroy Islam which is BS. And who is behind these attacks? Sunnite fanatics that were in power during Saddam’s regime(back to elites trying to stay in control). You don’t see the Kurds or the Shiites blowing themselves up? They just don't want any reforms coming into the country. And they are afraid that the change will be to the image of the leading economies like that of US, Europe and Asia where liberalism is wide spread. Problem is that with the current communication tools like internet, and sattelite tv, how easy it is to travel, and all their kids going to university in the US, Canada, Uk.... word is getting out... I'm pretty sure the next generation of kids will want to bring on change reflecting what they discovered abroad, at least to a certain extent. The old farts in power don't like that. So they terrorise everybody. Because they aren’t just trying to terrorize us, they are also intimidating their compatriots who might start wanting to change things from the inside. If they will do that to foreigners abroad, what will they do to me?
What really shocks me is that the suspected bombers for the London attacks were born in the UK. They were born in this country, how can they have been brought up with such hatred for it. What kind of community brings their children up with precepts that can convince them that blowing their neighbours up in a subway will further their cause?
Hermitt - I understand all that and whilst I read your post with keen interest it didn't really answer my question. For example, do you not concede that "...the best way to manage the situation now is to be a little more sensitive to the countries and their cultures that we invade" is a little vague?
I mean what exactly do you mean? How do you specifically feel you can turn around the situation in the UK at present with disaffected Muslims blowing up their own country's citizens?
It doesn't take a lot of grey matter to understand how the problems have come about but coming up with an idea how to make things better is a little tougher.
Do you have any specific ideas how to create a more stable Britain in terms of terrorist activities?
EDIT: Fred1 - excellent post.
I mean what exactly do you mean? How do you specifically feel you can turn around the situation in the UK at present with disaffected Muslims blowing up their own country's citizens?
It doesn't take a lot of grey matter to understand how the problems have come about but coming up with an idea how to make things better is a little tougher.
Do you have any specific ideas how to create a more stable Britain in terms of terrorist activities?
EDIT: Fred1 - excellent post.
D
duffistuta
Guest
1. Let's not confuse 'Muslims' with 'fundamentalists'. Plenty of religions have fundamentalist elements willing to kill in the name of their religion - it's happening on a weekly basis in the States with Christians, so let's not demonise a culture and faith because of a handful of bigotted idiots.
2. The signs are their communities didn't know a thing about it. The suspicion is that an individual, or a small group, have warped these kids' minds and used them. I think they were probably victims too, used by the people really to blame for this incident.