Legacy out of NXL, LTZ to follow

[Robbo]

So what happens to the NXL, now? Are these two spots up for sale? If so, is anyone buying?

I don't think there will be any great rush to buy in to the NXL as before, leastwise not at the price that spots were on offer.
I think you will see a contraction next year in the NXL .. if in fact there is a NXL ...there's a lot of sh!t going down Stateside at the moment, a lot of sh!t. .....hmmmm....

 

[Baca Loco]

Legacy actually paid the money to be a "franchise" of the NXL...right?

If I remember correctly, they weren't an original team, but when they joined the rumor was Gary forked out the money to purchase a place in the league.

LTZ...I have no idea how they got in. They went from DII straight to the NXL...so I know the NXL didn't come asking them to join...thus I'm thinking they must have bought their way in as well.

So what happens to the NXL, now? Are these two spots up for sale? If so, is anyone buying?

Chuck, my understanding is that Gary holds the franchise whether the team is active or not. Also, there are apparently a whole laundry list of restrictions or requirements related to transferring franchise rights. (And right about now who's gonna pay anyway?) The upshot would be that should the franchise acquire any future value--think TV perhaps--Gary would still be in the picture. I think that's right but can't confirm.

LTZ is/was strictly a non-franchise spot; like Dynasty, XSV, Raiders and Ultimate. Choosing not to play is simply that.

At the moment the league is looking to replace the 2 spots for the Omaha event and have 1 commitment as of yesterday. However, if 2 don't commit I'm guessing they will restructure the schedule of play.

 

[Dannefaerd]

Interesting stuff ... at least in rumor form.

So a question for those that are in possession of knowledge around some of what is going on and being planned ... (yes Robbo I'm looking at you here)

Do you believe that:

• The person you allude to has the knowledge & mandate to make it happen
• That the plan in viable and not just another paper tiger

Difficulty: Being as least obtuse as possible.

 

[Robbo]

Interesting stuff ... at least in rumor form.

So a question for those that are in possession of knowledge around some of what is going on and being planned ... (yes Robbo I'm looking at you here)

Do you believe that:

• The person you allude to has the knowledge & mandate to make it happen
• That the plan in viable and not just another paper tiger

Difficulty: Being as least obtuse as possible.

a) Yes, he has the knowledge but not the mandate as such. He will create his own mandates and if others follow, then cool, if they don't, then that's gonna be a problem for them I think and extremely short-sighted

b) His plan is not only viable but also much needed if this industry is to get outa the sh!t it's in.

 

[Chicago]

This suggests that if we put TV back on, then it will nudge the slope upwards and therefore it is now an industry responsibility to share production costs in putting paintball back on TV.

I disagree.

There are only so many people. Once they have tried paintball, either they like it, or they don't. Back in 1990, almost nobody had played paintball before, so we could get a lot of growth because there were hundreds of millions of people who hadn't played paintball just because they'd never even heard of it. Now, pretty much anyone who you might get to try paintball has tried paintball. The TV shows on ESPN reached the last 'untapped market' of people who hadn't tried paintball. Now we're pretty much left with the few million kids who get a year older and into 'paintball age' each year. Putting another show on television is not going to get nearly the payoff that putting the last show on television is, because the first show already got the people who hadn't tried paintball before and are likely to try it to do so.

The fact of the matter is, 10 million people play paintball in the US each year. That's one out of every 30 people. That is HUGE. That's bigger than pretty much any other outdoor sport, and is definitely bigger than ANY other sport that requires a significant equipment investment.

We really can't expect to get more people to play. 10 million is it. What we need to do now, as an industry, is two things:

1) For manufacturers, we need to retain those numbers and increase the number of people who play paintball FREQUENTLY. That's part of the reason JT likes the high school angle: You create an opportunity for kids to play on a more regular basis when it's a regular, social activity.

2) For players/leagues/locations, we need to get better at selling that 10 million participants to outside sponsors. 10 million is HUGE. It's 6 times the number of people who do dirt biking. But dirt biking is sponsored much more heavily, because that sport has done a much better job of giving outside companies an opportunity to brand themselves in that sport.

And, TV has nothing to do with it. Our shows hit 500,000 people, maybe. When you have 1.6 million participants, like dirt biking, 500,000 is a lot. When you have 10,000,000 participants, like paintball, 500,000 isn't ****.

It blows my mind why people are so focused on trying to sell a 500,000 viewer TV show when we have a 10,000,000 participant sport.

 

[Chicago]

Eh, n/m.

 

[Dannefaerd]

It's true ... everyone says that TV is going to be the next big thing to help take the sport to a higher level - introduce outside sponsorship and basically save the sport.

I can't see it. And the figures your quoting above reinforce that view.

Having the industry pay for getting something on TV seems flawed as well. Once you start putting your hand out to find funding you are on a hiding to nothing.

It would make more sense - I believe - to create a successful product/show (If you are convinced TV is the way) and then sell advertising/product rights within that production. You know - the traditional way.

I believe that there are more traditional channels that would be much more successful at reaching the existing market space. Something simple like direct marketing (i.e. direct 1-2-1 communication to your customer) by manufacturing companies, retail outlets and commercial fields.

I can count on a few fingers how many companies seem to try and actively market to me directly as a person (and those are not doing it very well). And it’s a lot easier to sell direct to someone you have a relationship with as opposed to someone new.

Look at the Warped Tour that paintball is involved in with Disconnected Promotions. They finished that tour with 40,000 validated names and contacts for people to market direct to. Pure gold – and I’d love to know how successful that has been for the 4 major sponsors that backed it!

 

[Robbo]

I disagree.

There are only so many people. Once they have tried paintball, either they like it, or they don't. Back in 1990, almost nobody had played paintball before, so we could get a lot of growth because there were hundreds of millions of people who hadn't played paintball just because they'd never even heard of it. Now, pretty much anyone who you might get to try paintball has tried paintball. The TV shows on ESPN reached the last 'untapped market' of people who hadn't tried paintball. Now we're pretty much left with the few million kids who get a year older and into 'paintball age' each year. Putting another show on television is not going to get nearly the payoff that putting the last show on television is, because the first show already got the people who hadn't tried paintball before and are likely to try it to do so.

The fact of the matter is, 10 million people play paintball in the US each year. That's one out of every 30 people. That is HUGE. That's bigger than pretty much any other outdoor sport, and is definitely bigger than ANY other sport that requires a significant equipment investment.

We really can't expect to get more people to play. 10 million is it. What we need to do now, as an industry, is two things:

1) For manufacturers, we need to retain those numbers and increase the number of people who play paintball FREQUENTLY. That's part of the reason JT likes the high school angle: You create an opportunity for kids to play on a more regular basis when it's a regular, social activity.

2) For players/leagues/locations, we need to get better at selling that 10 million participants to outside sponsors. 10 million is HUGE. It's 6 times the number of people who do dirt biking. But dirt biking is sponsored much more heavily, because that sport has done a much better job of giving outside companies an opportunity to brand themselves in that sport.

And, TV has nothing to do with it. Our shows hit 500,000 people, maybe. When you have 1.6 million participants, like dirt biking, 500,000 is a lot. When you have 10,000,000 participants, like paintball, 500,000 isn't ****.

It blows my mind why people are so focused on trying to sell a 500,000 viewer TV show when we have a 10,000,000 participant sport.

You can disagree all ya like mate but the proof is in the pudding Chris. First off that 10 million mark you quote is shall we say, a little suspect.
The revised sports figures are now suggesting it's something like 5 million but either way, that is academic because your rebuttal is based upon some points that just don't hold up.

First off, sales pick up when paintball is on TV and dip back down when it is not ...this is undeniable and therefore indicates that TV has a positive influence.
If we had 10 million participants, we wouldn't be in the sh!t we are now, trust me on that one Chris.
Something has to be wrong if what you're saying is right.
Your rebuttal also depends upon the 500k viewership being stable i.e. the same people seeing it.

And also, you guys have 300 million people over there I think and at any given time, there will be kids coming into 'that age' when paintball becomes an option, it's a fluid demographic Chris as you well know mate and not a fixed one.

I certainly don't have all the answers in terms of market analysis, and I don't think anybody does because I talk to a lot of the people who are at the top of our industry and most of them are thrashing around trying to keep their head above water and at the same time not really knowing how they got here.
Chris, you also know a lot of these guys, listen to the rhetoric and then try to reconcile it with your post because I can't seem to do it.

That 10 million figure has been bandied around now for a year or so and has now been halved by the very same people who came out with it in the first place. And as Dave YB suggested to me and I put it in the magazine 'Pete, how the hell do we even know if it's 5 million, we just don't'.

He's right, we don't and present sales figures suggest something is fundamentally wrong with our previous understanding of numbers and reasons for playing.

I apprecaite what you are suggesting 'sounds' right but the reality at the sales counter (the bit where it counts) is suggesting otherwise.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I disagree.

There are only so many people. Once they have tried paintball, either they like it, or they don't. Back in 1990, almost nobody had played paintball before, so we could get a lot of growth because there were hundreds of millions of people who hadn't played paintball just because they'd never even heard of it. Now, pretty much anyone who you might get to try paintball has tried paintball. The TV shows on ESPN reached the last 'untapped market' of people who hadn't tried paintball. Now we're pretty much left with the few million kids who get a year older and into 'paintball age' each year. Putting another show on television is not going to get nearly the payoff that putting the last show on television is, because the first show already got the people who hadn't tried paintball before and are likely to try it to do so.

The fact of the matter is, 10 million people play paintball in the US each year. That's one out of every 30 people. That is HUGE. That's bigger than pretty much any other outdoor sport, and is definitely bigger than ANY other sport that requires a significant equipment investment.

We really can't expect to get more people to play. 10 million is it. What we need to do now, as an industry, is two things:

1) For manufacturers, we need to retain those numbers and increase the number of people who play paintball FREQUENTLY. That's part of the reason JT likes the high school angle: You create an opportunity for kids to play on a more regular basis when it's a regular, social activity.

2) For players/leagues/locations, we need to get better at selling that 10 million participants to outside sponsors. 10 million is HUGE. It's 6 times the number of people who do dirt biking. But dirt biking is sponsored much more heavily, because that sport has done a much better job of giving outside companies an opportunity to brand themselves in that sport.

And, TV has nothing to do with it. Our shows hit 500,000 people, maybe. When you have 1.6 million participants, like dirt biking, 500,000 is a lot. When you have 10,000,000 participants, like paintball, 500,000 isn't ****.

It blows my mind why people are so focused on trying to sell a 500,000 viewer TV show when we have a 10,000,000 participant sport.

The 10 million number is irrelevant IMHO

The vast majority of those people have run around in some wood "playing soldiers".

If we really wanted to attract huge numbers to play MORE than the 2 times per year that the 10 million number covers - in the current climate - then we should put on a TV show that pushed playing recball on a competitive level, because that is what most of the 10 million think paintball is - and what they can relate to.

To grow the SPORT - before we start thinking about making tv shows - we need the thousands of fields all over the world to embrace arena style paintball.

Only when what people see on tv - relates to what they have tried a few times - will this sport see the next big bump in terms of participants.

What we are doing at the moment, is like trying to market handball to the masses, because 10 million of them have tried playing football a few times... we're essentially saying: "both activities involve a ball - and BTW, you can't really play handball that many places - but go out and play football some more, because we also make shoes and shirts and balls for that activity"

- it's going about it ass backwards I think.

Nick

 

[Mark790.06]

Let me have a go....

I run a field in Florida and may have a perspective some here may lack.

When the NPPL ESPN thing aired our number of first time players jumped noticeably. Of those new players perhaps 10% are still playing. We also had a guy who owned a business who came out and wanted to get him and his 20 employees into some kind of league. He wanted to do "that thing I saw on TV!" The way he saw it. We began working with him, giving him ideas we had of a corporate league much like bowling. We were looking at $800 - $1200 a week in revinue just from him alone. He was so enthused about it. As time went on we heard less and less from him and finally nothing. This was about the same time the jump in new players we had following the ESPN airing began to wane. The average attention-span of people is a fleating thing. So in my opinion you need to keep the product (i.e. the game) in front of them for as long and as frequently as you can.
The other thing that hurts is the typical business practices of both the industry and the store/field owner.
In the beginning most store/field owners were not very good business people, or perhaps were good at business but just not very people friendly or endowed with any kind of foward-looking vision. Of these, most were just in it as a side job, something to do on the weekends, but not as a means to an end.
Some were out and out scam artists preying on those whose enthusiasm for the game prevented them from seeing that they were being scammed. The scam artist would use these pigeons to keep them afloat until they could scam no more and then split.
As a result, very few, if any, manufacturers would give terms or lines of credit. Those who did would soon regret it.
In the states, paintball has it's seasons. In the North summer is good, winter is bad. In the South winter is good, and summer is bad. No matter what, we still need to pay rent, taxes, electric, garbage, etc. Without any flexibility from our suppliers things are tough. We order less, suppliers make less, belts are tightened everywhere.
Add to this all of the patent infringements, trademark violations, and intellectual property legal fights and the general cut-throat, dog-eat-dog nature of this business and I find it's amazing we're still here. Then it dawns on me how incredible this sport is that we still put up with it all.