Inconsistencies in Toulouse....

[fred1]

I know this is a topic that has been debated many times before but I think that once again in Toulouse, we witnessed certain inconsitencies when it came to checking guns for trigger bounce. So I guess my question is partly directed to Steve.

Steve I had a chat with you before going into one of my first final games on the Spyder Field. We had a talk about the number of suspensions (30 players suspended in Toulouse) and how it was good that you had finally drawn a line (definitely agree). Then I asked you about trigger bounce and you said that you were really looking for illegal boards, markers that go full auto real easy etc.... but that basically the refs weren't going to go on a with hunt against e-blades (since that what I play with thats what I was asking about) and that a bounce that is hard to find and is not plausiby usable on a field cause it takes too long to find is not a problem.

Everything went fine during the whole tournament. Our guns were checked on all the fields and we never had any problems. Not one of the refs managed to bounce my gun. We get to the finals and Andy is Head Ref on the NPS field and he bounces EVERY COCKER on the team!!!! 3 bounces is good enough for him to consider your cocker illegal.

1) When are we going to to come to the realisation that there is no cocker in the world that you can't bounce PERIOD. You can find the bounce on any electro coker unless the settings are equivalent to that of a mechanical cocker and then whats the point in a buying an e-blade then?

2) Why is it that standard gun test procedures are not respected, especially in the finals? Having had a chat with Nick Trutter (thanks for your time BTW) I had the impression that there was a standard gun test procedure. Well I would have liked to go and get him but we were not given the chance! And I can gurantee my marker will pass the standard test.

3) The proof that this marker checking was inconsistent is that for one game my mate comes on with his Nexus and Andy bounces it and says no way you are gong on the field with that so he changes the settings to like classic (1 ball a minute). The game after he comes back with his original settings and Andy can't bounce the gun? Talk about inconsistent....

I just don't understand why we have a certain policy for the whole week end and you get to the finals and policy changes just on one field with an over zealous ref bouncing all the cockers.

Do you have any idea how destabalising it is when 4 of your markers can't go on the field and you have to run after mates of yours standing on the side lines to borrow their guns. You aren't even used to the set up.

I just need clarification because I know the other div 3 teams with us had problems in the chrony zone and these actions seem quite useless to reach the policies real objective. Banning illegal and dangerous markers.

 

[U S]

Hello Fred1,

I can totally understand your anger and frustration on this issue. Yes, there is a whole bundle of problems concerning rules, bouncing guns, checking procedures, consistency and so on.
But you are not right in blaming Andy to be overzealous and making him look like the main source of trouble. Andy is maybe only the one head field judge, who enforces the rules, as they are exegeted right now, to the maximum. And he serves us well in doing so, because he illustrates, procedures need to be changed and the understanding of the intent of the written rules has to be improved.
Andy spent almost an hour with us after marshalling the whole day through, testing our guns over and over, because he had to suspend a player from our team and swapping the scores for a "bouncing" gun. He showed us his dedication and wanted to help to prevent similar experiences for us.

Unfortunately the result was like you already mentioned it: Any gun can be get to bounce and the same gun can be cleared through and two minutes later it can be declared illegal by the same judge.

This shows us, something has to happen till the Madrid event and dedicated people like Andy will be part of the solution and are not to be seen as the problem.

In all other aspects in your post I'm with you.


Ulrich
www.wombles.de

 

[Maximus]

I second that.

Andy spent over an hour wiyh us in Amsterdam to sort our markers out so we wouldn't get in any trouble. Thanks Andy.
The same would happen here, a gun get cleared and on the next atempt decleared not legal.

The rules need to be sorted out.

 

[murat]

Eventhough the general reffing was good, inconsistencies (like you mentioned) were on every field. On some fields judges look for Millenium ID's and make sure it's you and not someone else. On some of the fields, they check for additional layers of clothing, on some they check goggles for cracks (this was really unique), and some of judges are really extremely tough on bouncing. But on some fields they are really easy on you.

Now if we have had every judge on every field acting similarly and showing the same strictness on every rule then things would have been a little bit more fair. On the same side if we have all the judges trying to enforce every rule in the book then games will be delayed for hours. Of course we all don't want any cheaters in the game but it should be so organized that we have consistent judging and pre-game checks on every field.

 

[DK1]

Originally posted by fred1
Everything went fine during the whole tournament. Our guns were checked on all the fields and we never had any problems. Not one of the refs managed to bounce my gun. We get to the finals and Andy is Head Ref on the NPS field and he bounces EVERY COCKER on the team!!!! 3 bounces is good enough for him to consider your cocker illegal.

1) When are we going to to come to the realisation that there is no cocker in the world that you can't bounce PERIOD. You can find the bounce on any electro coker unless the settings are equivalent to that of a mechanical cocker and then whats the point in a buying an e-blade then?

Well, I suppose I will voice my (probably unpopular) opinion. I don't like eblades, because of that exact reason. I've never shot an eblade that couldn't be bounced. And I'm not talking about difficult, I mean they are, at their most difficult, easier to bounce than just about every other type of marker.

I've used them, I've tried my darndest to get them to quit bouncing. I've adjusted timings, filters, trigger length and weight... you just can't get them to not bounce. I personally think the way they use the magnet is partially to blame. I've only got to use one race-gun, so I don't know if they have the problem also. I know they use a microswitch and springs though, not magnets.

I see no reason why we should lower the bar so eblades can be legal. They bounce. I can pick up someone else's eblade and get it going full auto with minimal time (give me 5 pulls). You think that that person won't be able to do it just about every time they feel like it? If the ref can pick the thing up, and get it to bounce without difficulty, then the gun shouldn't be on the field. IMO

DK1

 

[fred1]

I think in frustration I missed the point. I guess your right. It's not about a ref applyin the rules a little too strictly but about defining the rules correctly. Sorry about that. I shouldn't have directed this personally on Andy. Please forgive me.

I guess what I'd like to know is if we are gong to see clear rules regarding this issue in the next leg of the Millennium? Right now players have no way of defending themselves. Not every one can bounce the same marker which means enforcing is quite random and imprecise. We can't all go buy new markers either.

 

[Russell Smith]

I think it is right to point out that ALL electro triggers can be made to bounce if the user makes the change's required.

I have found that the E-Blade is as good/bad as the rest of them out there.

However it is a problem when a ref (in this case Andy) finds it easy to cause them to bounce - I am sure they they was not being used at factory settings and as such brings me on to to the point which will be raised at some point so it might as well be me.

Why not make it a rule that all markers must be used at agreed settings at all events maybe a default factory setting that can be checked quite easy.

I have not posted to defend E-Blades but if you checked as many markers as I have like I said at the top of this post it's all Electro markers.


Russ

 

[Troggy]

Russell,

The Eblade is an aftermarket part - therefore cannot be left at factory settings. They need to be individually set for the markers they are being fitted to.

Besides - from my experience the EBlade is at its bounciest when it is taken straight from the factory (on a Eclipse Factory / Nexus series) nearly everyone I know has HAD to change the settings to reduce / stop bounce on them.

Back on topic - we personally as a team had no problems with the bounce test this weekend, however I would like to see the Millennium define the rules. As Steve said in the captains meeting - we are looking for obvious advantages - doesn't really define the test and help us to try and prevent it happening.

 

[Claudio]

Hi guys

We were waiting by the Tomahawk field next to some Ugly Ducklings players when we saw one guy of Xerxes team (the small Iranian team) giving to the judge his new Spyder Electra just brought in one of the tourney booth. Te judge take the gun for test then we heard “Tap-tap-tap” and the judge said, your gun bounces you cannot go in with it…

C’on where we going ?

 

[Wadidiz]

I would like to give my usual long, detailed answers to everything but I simply don't have time right now.

As Ulrich Stähr posted, the problem isn't Andy Scutt. He is totally competent, totally unbiased and, like my other professional head referees, totally trusted by me. In fact, we couldn't have made the progress we've made this year without him. He has served as my right-hand man for the 7-player series all year and is extremely dedicated to quality, consistent reffing and reasonable rules.

Concerning Autocockers, Nick Truter--the E-blade meister--proved to the world that Cockers can be made legal and still shoot at top speed. After he had it clarified with me what we were going to allow and not allow (which can be ascertained from the published rules and what was said in the captains' meeting) there was ZERO problems with the guns he adjusted. That says everything to me.

I truly feel sorry for the individuals and the teams that suffered because they didn't have the technical competence to make their markers comply with the rules. I especially feel for people like Ulrich who I totally trust to do the right thing. But, just like when police forces start suddenly enforcing existing rules that were ignored for a while, some "less guilty" people suffer. The more corrupt people with more financial resources will suffer less.

The high number of suspensions is something that had to happen, part of the process and sends a signal that we are drawing a line. It is not a perfect line and there is the subjective, human element to it, but it is a line that must be drawn.

Other leagues that have de facto given up have their own little red wagon to pull; we have ours. Paintball is vulnerable in certain countries and if we don't sharpen up it will be banned.

I simply want safe, legal and consistently fair paintball and the incredible technical complexities of the whole situation makes that an extremely difficult goal. Nevertheless we're not giving up. On the contrary we're moving forward. I anticipate far less penalties in this area at future events because players, teams, techies, manufacturers and sponsors know what to expect. I visualize paintball in Europe again setting the standard for fairness, good judging and top-level playing.

Steve