Hey TJ, How's the new guv'nor?

[Baca Loco]

Hotpoint,
That was a classic post.

Here's one little conundrum for ya--if freewill is a myth then the rest of your post which argues relative moral distinctions is complete nonsense. No freewill, no morality period much less language that attempts to define the differences. What is corrupt? What is amoral? Even self-interest is nearly meaningless.

And if you are correct how can you possibly attribute idealistic or patriotic motives to anyone, much less politicians? Both those terms by definition operate outside self-interest.

 

[joe bob]

i heard that on Eliot in the Morning, thats where I get all my political news

 

[Hotpoint]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Hotpoint,
That was a classic post.

Thought it might stir some response

Originally posted by Baca Loco

Here's one little conundrum for ya--if freewill is a myth then the rest of your post which argues relative moral distinctions is complete nonsense. No freewill, no morality period much less language that attempts to define the differences. What is corrupt? What is amoral? Even self-interest is nearly meaningless.

Whilst I've gotta agree with Nietzche that "there are no moral phenomena there is only a moral interpretation of phenomena" I don't think that means we should not define our own morality but we should just always bear in mind that our "truth" is just an intellectual construct and thus always open to question

We give notions such as "corruption" meaning within the parameters we develop ourselves. The notion that murder (for example) is wrong is just as prevalent amongst Atheists as it is amongst Theists despite the fact they don't feel threatened by divine retribution in the supposed afterlife

As for self-interest it depends on how you look at it. If you view things from the basis of Evolutionary-Psychology there is still something beyond ourselves and it is on this basis that a new "morality" of a sort can be found. "We're in this for the species people"... or at least the genes

Originally posted by Baca Loco

And if you are correct how can you possibly attribute idealistic or patriotic motives to anyone, much less politicians? Both those terms by definition operate outside self-interest.

Operate outside self-interest as an individual certainly but not as a group. We are just machines for carrying on the genetic material of our ancestors to the next generation after all

As for "patriotism" to take the comparison to the extreme an individual Ant does not even have the opportunity to pass on it's genes (as we do) but it will willingly die to protect the colony of similar beings. We may be intelligent sentient tool-users but when we go to war we're still just subconciously laying down our lives for our colony we just call it a tribe... or a nation

 

[TJ Lambini]

Urban dude - I was just ****ing wit chu man...

 

[pestilence]

Dont worry TJ, Urbans a bit of a crusty 'ol Geezer, your playful suggestion of banning him was probably lost in his fogged up, arthritic mind

As for politics, well look no further than paintball. It's rife with it, and unfortunatley it seems that the paintball world is just a screwed up as the real world. Look at the whole NXL Vs PSP Vs NPPL, three organisations allegedly working for the will of the people, but all with distinct agenda's (some good - some bad -nuff said). - You cant play Xball and NPPL issue, denying each event from witnessing some potentially fantastic matchs, all due to the 'it's my ball, and your not playing' mentalitly - which I'm glad seems to be blurring.

I get annoyed with all the bithching and moaning with bad marshalling on internet forums, all the conspiracy and 'we wuz robbed' tittle tattle. team Vs team. Country Vs county, Site Vs site and so on. Like life Hidden agenda's lie everywhere. It's amazing what you can see when you truly open your eyes....

Oh bugger, the boss is in now... oh well, back to work
(I was just starting to get on my soapbox too!)

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by Hotpoint

We give notions such as "corruption" meaning within the parameters we develop ourselves. The notion that murder (for example) is wrong is just as prevalent amongst Atheists as it is amongst Theists despite the fact they don't feel threatened by divine retribution in the supposed afterlife

Actually you get MORE murder from members of organised religions. They just call it "jihad" or "defending the faith" or some similar name - how many wars have come about because of differences in religious beliefs (or at least religion as an excuse?).

Nice to see a philosophical debate back on P8nt, it's been a while & I always enjoy reading them. Now where's Robbo to add his comments?.....

 

[Bigdog]

ah, politics....

From the latin
poly => Many
tics => blood sucking insects

 

[JoseDominguez]

As a species, we love to fight, pretty much explains the way the world works.
Everyone has an opinion on everything, but somehow we always manage to split into two sides, weird innit? look at world war two..... Germany(being the master race) hated non Arians.....so naturaly they could only side with other Arians (otherwise their whole philosophy was crap) so they sided with the other tall blonde races: Italians and Japanese?????? The US and UK despised the Russians....but we all end up together. Same with religion.......non of the religions are particularly friendly but at any point in history they are fighting one on one. When a population doesn't have a war/religious difference/racism to occupy itself then it goes to the next stage: soccer fans.
Every major team has an "arch-enemy" why????? "grrrrrr, b@stards they support a different group of sweaty men.Fight them as their shirts are slightly different to ours"
Pointless, we'll always do it, it's human nature..... we need an enemy. Otherwise who do we use as the bad-guys in films? thirty years ago all bad guys were germanic, then soviet and now lots of Arabs.
One thing I've noticed is that no matter what the prevailing "hollywood bad guy" of the hour, you can always use an Englishman instead
Says a lot really.

 

[Urban]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Urban dude - I was just ****ing wit chu man...

I know that...

Well, actually I didn't at the time.. bad day, foul mood etc.. but about 2 hours after I posted it I did

Interesting, however, that some believe we have no free-will. Surely if that were the case someone within the paintball world would have worked out which barricade your going to run to and what your tactics are going to be because, let's face it, if this arguement holds water you really don't have a choice as to whether your going to be good at this game or not and from game-on to dead-box the splendid, intuiative moves we see are all just pre-programmed motion.

Seems to me that you should be able to predict what any specific person will or will not do in any specific situation if you have enough information about the individual concerned...

Maybe replace the X-Ball coaches with philosophers....

Urban

 

[Hotpoint]

Originally posted by Liz
Actually you get MORE murder from members of organised religions. They just call it "jihad" or "defending the faith" or some similar name - how many wars have come about because of differences in religious beliefs (or at least religion as an excuse?).

Even better than that is that according to survey results from the US confirmed Atheists as a % are far less likely to be criminals than people who believe in God

Originally posted by Urban
Interesting, however, that some believe we have no free-will. Surely if that were the case someone within the paintball world would have worked out which barricade your going to run to and what your tactics are going to be because, let's face it, if this arguement holds water you really don't have a choice as to whether your going to be good at this game or not and from game-on to dead-box the splendid, intuiative moves we see are all just pre-programmed motion.

Don't confuse the idea of genetic determinism with predictability, it is known that a certain percentage of the population has what has come to be called the "Gambling Gene" which gives them the predilection to make random or risky decisions rather than logical or predictable ones

Additionally there is even a known genetic casuality to aggression itself which can act much like a switch. We've all seen players suddenly appear to lose it and go on a bunkering-frenzy, it isn't predictable but it is a product of their DNA not free-will or concious choice

Originally posted by Urban

Seems to me that you should be able to predict what any specific person will or will not do in any specific situation if you have enough information about the individual concerned...

Maybe replace the X-Ball coaches with philosophers....

Sun-Tzu wrote "Know your enemy and know yourself and in a hundred battles your victory will never be in doubt"

However...

Napoleon said "No battle-plan ever survives contact with the enemy"