Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[Baca Loco]

I think that the NXL took another approach to eliminating gun cheats, but you cant tell me that there aren't any, or there wouldnt be any teams getting getting penalized for guns, and there are.

What I will tell you is that 90 plus percent of all gun penalties in the NXL are for hot guns of the minor infraction variety and virtually all the rest are the lesser call for ROF violations which occur when a single shot out a stream is determined to have occurred too soon after the previous shot. [That means any single shot that occurs with a gap of less than 66/1000 from the prior shot is in violation even tho a single ball at say, 65/1000, out of 15 wouldn't actually create a measurable ROF above the legal limit over the duration of a full second.] The level of control and the real incidence of intentional gun cheats between the NPPL and the NXL aren't even close to comparable and your assumptions are nearly completely incorrect.

 

[Chicago]

I think that the NXL took another approach to eliminating gun cheats, but you cant tell me that there aren't any, or there wouldnt be any teams getting getting penalized for guns, and there are.

That's like saying speed limits are not effective because some people get speeding tickets.

Or closer to home, that the 300 fps velocity limit doesn't work because some people get chronograph penalties.

In fact, the very symptom you are complaining about (the issuance of penalties), indicates the OPPOSITE of your purported conclusion. Penalties show that the enforcement is working, especially when the penalties are mostly for very small deviations from the legal limit.

If your police department didn't own a radar gun, you wouldn't say the lack of speeding tickets issued indicates no one is speeding. You'd naturally conclude that the lack of speeding tickets issued is caused by the fact that your police department lacks the ability to enforce the law.

Similarly, the lack of gun penalties in NPPL doesn't occur because there isn't rampant gun cheating, the lack of gun penalties is because NPPL doesn't have any means of enforcing the rules, and with no means of enforcement, no enforcement happens.

The strongest evidence that you don't have a way to catch people who are breaking the rules is that you're not catching anybody breaking the rules.



Gun rule enforement in NPPL is on par with a police department without a radar gun writing out tickets when they think it looks like someone was driving really fast. It's arbitrary and ineffective.

 

[shamu]

Having worked both NPPL and PSP/Xball events, I have to say the rules for markers (and ability to enforce the rules) are much better on the PSP side. The rules are clear in terms of what is/isn't allowed, and it's possible to actually test/enforce the rules right on the field without having to rely on an individual's judgement. Between the pact timers and stalker radar guns, BPS and velocity can be monitored without unduly affecting the game, and tested right on the field of play within seconds of the infraction. If the pact timer says .064, you get a penalty. No "it seems fast" judgement needed.

The NPPL "true semi-auto" rule is very difficult to enforce. Timeout parameters on most cheat modes mean the vaunted robot loses it's effectiveness. By the time you get the marker to the robot to be tested, the gun and/or cheat mode have turned off. That's why you would often see Dave Zinkham manually testing markers on the field.

As far as cheating, I think the biggest difference is that lower level teams are not as practised as the pros, and they don't watch the refs as closely to see what they can get away with. Lower level players also seem to believe the "everyone cheats" hype a little too much, automatically assuming that everything they see as a hit/cheating is actually cheating. Many times I've heard spectators and teams screaming about a hit that is actually rub. This isn't to say that it doesn't happen or that the refs are always right, just that the ratio of actual to perceived cheating may not be what a lot of people think it is. (I know - I'm a ref, I'm biased, I suck - so believe what you will)

 

[Robbo]

I think at this point it might be a good idea to get Rich Telford to come post and see what he has to say....I shall ask him to come post...

 

[Dannefaerd]

Perhaps a thread split would be a good idea? This has moved so much from the original intent of the thread it's almost laughable. What started as a pleasent jaunt in the world of professional teams becoming more of a LLC with products and services ... has turned into another discussion/rant on cheating and cheat guns.

Speaking personally I'd be keen to hear more on the original topic in this thread Just move all the other stuff into a new thread ('cause the discussion in the rest is just as interesting)

 

[JtJ]

I really just skimmed most of the last three pages of posts, as I simply don't have the time to read them all in depth, but I am getting the feeling that no one takes the threat of getting caught and penalized as a credible deterrent against cheater boards?

 

[TJ Lambini]

C'mon, Maestro, you and I both know that anyone who could answer that with any credibility won't. In large measure this is a don't ask don't tell issue even among friends because it has bottom line ramifications. It can affect sponsorship. (For a variety of reasons.) Even so to imagine that the players who are friends don't tell each other this stuff would be a mistake. It happens but there is little upside in making a big deal out of it. Particularly if you are doing it too but even if you aren't what does it get you?

Hey, if everyone plays 'don't ask, don't tell, honor among thieves' and tha industry and leagues are complicit - which they are - then y'all get the 'sport' (hohoho) you deserve and should quit even talking about it.

Where's Telford then Robo? Deliver...

 

[Wadidiz]

I really just skimmed most of the last three pages of posts, as I simply don't have the time to read them all in depth, but I am getting the feeling that no one takes the threat of getting caught and penalized as a credible deterrent against cheater boards?

No offense but it's obvious you just skimmed.

Players who play in the leagues where the gun rules are enforced (because they have the means and the will to do so) do take that threat very seriously.

To use an analogy I've used before, drivers in Sweden haven't taken the 70km/h speed limit very seriously because it hasn't really been enforced until now. Just recently they put up bunches of cameras set to take your picture at something like 7km/h over the posted limit. So everyone drives right below the the de-facto limit wherever they have the cameras (and most drivers find out exactly where those cameras are very quickly), because you're likely to get an expensive fine in the mail otherwise. Before that most drivers went around 20 over and just visually scanned for traffic cops.

So just like Chicago and others have said, peeps adjust to the environment they find themselves in. Just like a classroom full of fourth-graders size up their new teacher in less than five minutes and adjust their behavior thereafter.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

So just like Chicago, Nick and others have said, peeps adjust to the environment they find themselves in. Just like a classroom full of fourth-graders size up their new teacher in less than five minutes and adjust their behavior thereafter.

I haven't actually said that

My belief is that some players/teams comply with the rules, and others don't... it's all a question of personal morals.

Nick

 

[Wadidiz]

I haven't actually said that

My belief is that some players/teams comply with the rules, and others don't... it's all a question of personal morals.

Nick

Sorry. I was too lazy to go back and check.

I guess I've said this already in so many words but I don't think it is only a question of personal morals but rather of what the "real rules" are and that is only seen by the level of enforcement. I don't put much faith in many people having a good moral compass and while there have always been people who cheat, I believe today's sports culture has moved at a break-neck pace towards rationalizing and justifying dishonesty much more than before.

The honor system is "They've got the honor; we've got the system."

As JR on Dallas said, "Where there's a way there's a will." The saying, "Locks on doors keep honest people honest," also fits here IMO.