No argument here, but that does not mean a guy can't bemoan tha modern trends in sportsmanship and personal responsibility, or lack of it.Chicago said:
Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?
- Thread starter TJ Lambini
- Start date
Dog chasing tale. That was sorta tha whole point I was making, that ANY morality--not just my personal ones--are at odds with most people in this and most any other sport.TJ Lambini said:
And, yeah, you're right that there will never be any rulebook, constitution, set of legislation or moral code that can exhaustively define the entire scope of life and every little detail of how we should or should not behave. Of course there is a whole lot of societal dependency on a basic and universally understood moral consensus although we shouldn't be so surprised when peeps take advantage of the openness in a Nietzschean way.
Part of Chicago's point is right that we should blame a league for a lack of real control that not only allows but by default encourages doing something that is not only grossly unsafe but very unfair (until actually all the players follow suit). But Robbo was right when he expressed how morally dispicable gun cheats (especially velocity ramping) are. Even in an everybody's-doing-it-because-we-can milieu such people should--if they could be--held accountable for choosing such behavior and hung out to dry.
Having said that the only moral choices would be to not participate in such a league or do as Robbo has talked about his team doing, participate without such cheating and recognize with leanness of heart that their results most likely would be much better if they joined the crowd.
That, however, doesn't bring home the bacon...and it sucks that such choices would have to be made.
Which brings everyone back to the question most have long pondered, which is, 'Why the **** don't the NPPL do 15BPS cap FA and have done with it?'
Anyway, where's Telford? Let's get this back on track cos I wanna know if he thinks he has revolutionized tha sport and that every player out there owes him a beer.
Anyway, where's Telford? Let's get this back on track cos I wanna know if he thinks he has revolutionized tha sport and that every player out there owes him a beer.
C'mon, Maestro, that's still a dodge. Define sportsmanship (my Websters was particularly unhelpful.) And where exactly does personal responsibility enter into the equation and in what form?TJ Lambini said:
And about the football analogy Chi-town used. It works very well given the current rulebook. Holding is a serious infraction that is only called a small percentage of the time it actually occurs as a matter of playability. It is also a rule that has in recent years been altered considerably from it's original form such that players can legally hold in certain circumstances now. As a practical matter then players know the limits of holding and no one considers ALL holding "cheating" because it isn't. And sometimes players get called for technical infractions of the rule and sometimes they get called for blatant violation of the rules but in either case it's the same penalty.
So are all players who now hold when it's allowed cheaters and poor sportsmen because at one time the rules didn't allow it? And if the defacto rules allow it how can you decry the level of sportsmanship and personal responsibility of the participants?
Is the key part of your statement.Baca Loco said:
Do players know if their guns are within what the NPPL says (badly) is allowed?
The answer to that, certainly in tha top 3 divisions, is 'yes'.
Do many run tha gauntlet by having chips that deliberately help them circumvent what we shall call the 'limits of gun technology', to stick with your quote?
Yes.
And that's where sportsmanship and personal responsibility come in. They are not doing a spot of holding, they are rabbit punching an opponent to the back of the head while the ref ain't looking...
What I would like to see happen is for NPPL to adopt a standard, open, certified, semi-auto chip. 15 bps full auto or ramping is a cop-out.
TJ Lambini said:
Ok, I give up.
My very specific point in the context of American football was that what the rules say and what the rules are do not necessarily coincide--as is the case with the NPPL gun rules.
And also in the case of football lots of holding goes by the board because it is specifically allowed to happen despite the official rules in the official rulebook.
And unless or until someone is prepared to qualify sportsmanship and personal responsibility in this context it sounds suspiciously like it's bad 'cus I don't like it and think it ought to be otherwise.
Chicago, Chicago, Chicago--that old chestnut one more time? Start with a meaningful definition of semi-auto.
C-ya kids. I'll be waiting with baited breath for Rich to show up.
That's easy - whatever the standard chip says it is.Baca Loco said:Start with a meaningful definition of semi-auto.
More specifically, there are two components to a good definition: A mechanical component and a software component. For the software component, you only let the software actuate the solenoid once per trigger event, and you throw in some programming to discard switch bounce.
For the mechanical component, you require that the marker can only be fired when a force of X is placed on the trigger, and can only fire again after that force has been released. Since you now have a standard chip doing the firing (so you know what the software will do given certain input) it's a lot easier to test for compliance with the mechanical component of the rule.
You guys act like getting a marker to fire one shot per trigger pull is some sort of feat that can only be accomplished through magic. That's not even cloe to the truth - you're just too used to various parties in paintball spending years trying everything possible to obfuscate definitions in favor of making their products shoot faster. Just because no one has tried to make a standard for all markers to follow or make a marker that meets a standard doesn't mean it can't be done.
Cheating
Standard chips? Come on... the only real way for that to work would be to apply similar rules to car racing.
Like in the rallies, were the cars are inspected before the race and then locked up. Even then, you know that a team would bribe someone to let them in and change the guns or whatever.
There is a moral responsability of all envolved, but the stakes are high. You can't be on a team, take money and resources from sponsors and then say
"We didn't win, because everybody else is cheating. But here's the good news, we're not cheating! We even want to change the team's name to "Boy Scouts" ".
It's simply not a reasonable proposition. It, very obviously, doesn't work. Forget whether it's wrong to do it or not. Its logic doesn't apply in the real world.
There are two things that could be done to improve on the situation.
1 - Increase the capacity of the refs to enforce the rules and give harsher penalties for those who cheat (a year off competition, for instance). If there are no cheaters left, and if it's difficult to cheat, cheating will tone down dramatically, maybe.
2 - Bring the rules into modern age, allow for a reasonable upgrade of fire-capacity. I think that NPPL, by going pure semi, is only delaying reality.
Let the players shoot at a rate that shortens the effective difference between cheater and "normal" boards. If a normal board shoots 15 Bps and a cheater shoots 24 Bps, wouldn't this make it easier for refs to know that a cheater board was in use? (ra ta ta ta ta vs. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)
There are no clear cut solutions, I know this. But nobody can realisticaly expect the players to conform to the rules. When you play in the upper percentiles of your game, every little bit counts, and players will push the limits every step of the way. They'll cheat, get boards, take drugs, sleep with their dogs... whatever it takes to WIN.
Look at other sports, were doping is severly pursued and enforced. Has that done anything to stop it? Not really.
Does XSV cheat? Most likely and they are probably very good at it, if not the best.
Most new players I talk to think that cheating is just another variable in the game. If this is survival at its best, then cheating will go rampant and the non-cheaters will be expelled from the game altoghether, or forced to cheat.
Standard chips? Come on... the only real way for that to work would be to apply similar rules to car racing.
Like in the rallies, were the cars are inspected before the race and then locked up. Even then, you know that a team would bribe someone to let them in and change the guns or whatever.
There is a moral responsability of all envolved, but the stakes are high. You can't be on a team, take money and resources from sponsors and then say
"We didn't win, because everybody else is cheating. But here's the good news, we're not cheating! We even want to change the team's name to "Boy Scouts" ".
It's simply not a reasonable proposition. It, very obviously, doesn't work. Forget whether it's wrong to do it or not. Its logic doesn't apply in the real world.
There are two things that could be done to improve on the situation.
1 - Increase the capacity of the refs to enforce the rules and give harsher penalties for those who cheat (a year off competition, for instance). If there are no cheaters left, and if it's difficult to cheat, cheating will tone down dramatically, maybe.
2 - Bring the rules into modern age, allow for a reasonable upgrade of fire-capacity. I think that NPPL, by going pure semi, is only delaying reality.
Let the players shoot at a rate that shortens the effective difference between cheater and "normal" boards. If a normal board shoots 15 Bps and a cheater shoots 24 Bps, wouldn't this make it easier for refs to know that a cheater board was in use? (ra ta ta ta ta vs. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)
There are no clear cut solutions, I know this. But nobody can realisticaly expect the players to conform to the rules. When you play in the upper percentiles of your game, every little bit counts, and players will push the limits every step of the way. They'll cheat, get boards, take drugs, sleep with their dogs... whatever it takes to WIN.
Look at other sports, were doping is severly pursued and enforced. Has that done anything to stop it? Not really.
Does XSV cheat? Most likely and they are probably very good at it, if not the best.
Most new players I talk to think that cheating is just another variable in the game. If this is survival at its best, then cheating will go rampant and the non-cheaters will be expelled from the game altoghether, or forced to cheat.
No such procedure is necessary. You just pull a chip from a gun on the field and plop it in your chip reader and either it's legal or it's not, and if it's not, you get tossed for a year or three. Simple, clear cut, and enforceable.rpcruzr said:
Let's not go overboard - the problem we have is very simply that refs can not tell if a gun is legal or not with the means of inspection available. Give them an easy way to tell whether or not a gun is legal and the problem is solved. PSP/NXL have shown this, I just think we can solve the problem WITHOUT also promoting 15 bps ramping, which is having severe, negative consequences on our ability to retain new players.
It's not cheating if you don't get caught, right?
I was watching some sort of special once involving Michael Jordan, where he spent a couple minutes detailing exactly how you can break the rules when the official is not in a position to see that you're doing it.