I have already beat u to it..........Originally posted by BOOGIE
Steve , Nick any more of this humblness and im gonna throw up !! LOL
Finally home from the 'Dam.....
- Thread starter BOOGIE
- Start date
Just to clarify what I am saying, or not saying.
I absolutely agree that teams and players should be treated with respect and given consideration for the effort and dedications they put forth. But, I just don't see why we need to have the "customer" connotation attached. I try to treat them that way simply because they are people, whether they paid to play or not.
The problem that I have with "customer" service is that there CANNOT be a "customer is always right" policy, and that is exactly what these teams and players seem to be looking for whenever they announce that they are the customers.
In Philly last year - there were two incidents that happened on separate fields at relatively the same time.
In one game, a player bunkered another player and as he ran forward shooting at the next player he was hit. He shot the last two or 3 balls of a string of shots after the ball hit him. One of these balls hit the other player, who was the last player on that team. The ref, being in the exact right spot, and with in his opinion a very clear view of the action, called the running player eliminated, told the other judge to wipe the last player and continue d the game. The last player, who had been wiped off, engaged what was now the last player on the other team, and lost the battle and therefore the game. The ultimate assessed the situation and determined the ref had done exactly the right thing and the game stood as called.
In another game, a ref who was coming from one field to another field to ref saw a player get hit. The ref started yelling before he got onto the field. The player jumped up and ran down the field shooting the remaining two players. The ref, upon entering the field, chased the player down, assessed a two for one penalty, which in effect gave the other team the win. The ultimate judge decided that it was not within the rules for this ref to come from the outside of the field, onto the field and do such a thing, especially when no paint mark was found. And overturned the call, giving the game to the team who had indeed eliminated all of the other players.
Now, these incidents happened literally within moments of each other on side-by-side fields. It was during the semi finals, and both losing teams were facing elimination.
Eventually both team captains have decided to "go over the ultimates head", and talk to the event administrator. Both captains standing on opposite sides of one man, both yelling into one ear about how they were being screwed and how the event organizers could care less about it customers and how crappy the reff's were, etc etc. And then, absolutely simultaneously they shouted in unison
"If you don't over turn that call I want my money back" and " if you allow that call to be over turned I want my money back"
The tournament official looked at both and said -- you two figure out how to solve this, and let me know what to do. Both captains left and went back to there tents and the tournament proceeded.
The point is - 50% of the "customers" feel they are screwed in just about every single game. How in the hell do you win that??? As an athlete, or a competitor, you accept that you will not win every game. You accept that you will get a bad call from a ref. You accept that another competitor will get away with breaking a rule against you; you realize others on your team may one day break a rule against someone else. And just as you would be justified in being irate if you were penalized simple because the other team said you cheated - you can't expect "customer service" to be issued in the form of penalizing another team just because you say they cheated. And you sure as hell can't expect to get your money back because YOU think a ref made a bad call, whether he did or didn't.
I agree there should be some course of action. But I support a course of action more in line with a sporting event (i.e.: a council to look into reoccurring problems with a ref, a committee to keep the players competitive concerns in focus to the event organizers, etc). But, to expect to be treated like a customer, just as you would be treated like a customer in my retail store, just doesn't seem appropriate. If you can't get your money back (and I would think everyone could see why this is almost impossible to do), and if you can't replay the game (again, I think most would realize that no schedule would ever be completed again if this precedent was set), then what should be done?
I just think the whole "customer" thing is out of place here. It opens a can of worms that no one can contain. I still try to treat people with respect at my events (as long as they act in a respectful way). But it's because I appreciate them as paintball players who are continuing to chase the dream. Not because they paid an entry fee so that the event can be facilitated.
Just my opinion. And I really would like to hear additional well-reasoned opinions.
I absolutely agree that teams and players should be treated with respect and given consideration for the effort and dedications they put forth. But, I just don't see why we need to have the "customer" connotation attached. I try to treat them that way simply because they are people, whether they paid to play or not.
The problem that I have with "customer" service is that there CANNOT be a "customer is always right" policy, and that is exactly what these teams and players seem to be looking for whenever they announce that they are the customers.
In Philly last year - there were two incidents that happened on separate fields at relatively the same time.
In one game, a player bunkered another player and as he ran forward shooting at the next player he was hit. He shot the last two or 3 balls of a string of shots after the ball hit him. One of these balls hit the other player, who was the last player on that team. The ref, being in the exact right spot, and with in his opinion a very clear view of the action, called the running player eliminated, told the other judge to wipe the last player and continue d the game. The last player, who had been wiped off, engaged what was now the last player on the other team, and lost the battle and therefore the game. The ultimate assessed the situation and determined the ref had done exactly the right thing and the game stood as called.
In another game, a ref who was coming from one field to another field to ref saw a player get hit. The ref started yelling before he got onto the field. The player jumped up and ran down the field shooting the remaining two players. The ref, upon entering the field, chased the player down, assessed a two for one penalty, which in effect gave the other team the win. The ultimate judge decided that it was not within the rules for this ref to come from the outside of the field, onto the field and do such a thing, especially when no paint mark was found. And overturned the call, giving the game to the team who had indeed eliminated all of the other players.
Now, these incidents happened literally within moments of each other on side-by-side fields. It was during the semi finals, and both losing teams were facing elimination.
Eventually both team captains have decided to "go over the ultimates head", and talk to the event administrator. Both captains standing on opposite sides of one man, both yelling into one ear about how they were being screwed and how the event organizers could care less about it customers and how crappy the reff's were, etc etc. And then, absolutely simultaneously they shouted in unison
"If you don't over turn that call I want my money back" and " if you allow that call to be over turned I want my money back"
The tournament official looked at both and said -- you two figure out how to solve this, and let me know what to do. Both captains left and went back to there tents and the tournament proceeded.
The point is - 50% of the "customers" feel they are screwed in just about every single game. How in the hell do you win that??? As an athlete, or a competitor, you accept that you will not win every game. You accept that you will get a bad call from a ref. You accept that another competitor will get away with breaking a rule against you; you realize others on your team may one day break a rule against someone else. And just as you would be justified in being irate if you were penalized simple because the other team said you cheated - you can't expect "customer service" to be issued in the form of penalizing another team just because you say they cheated. And you sure as hell can't expect to get your money back because YOU think a ref made a bad call, whether he did or didn't.
I agree there should be some course of action. But I support a course of action more in line with a sporting event (i.e.: a council to look into reoccurring problems with a ref, a committee to keep the players competitive concerns in focus to the event organizers, etc). But, to expect to be treated like a customer, just as you would be treated like a customer in my retail store, just doesn't seem appropriate. If you can't get your money back (and I would think everyone could see why this is almost impossible to do), and if you can't replay the game (again, I think most would realize that no schedule would ever be completed again if this precedent was set), then what should be done?
I just think the whole "customer" thing is out of place here. It opens a can of worms that no one can contain. I still try to treat people with respect at my events (as long as they act in a respectful way). But it's because I appreciate them as paintball players who are continuing to chase the dream. Not because they paid an entry fee so that the event can be facilitated.
Just my opinion. And I really would like to hear additional well-reasoned opinions.
Lane, it's quite easy mate, don't concern yourself with the extremes of some player's demands and allow this to set your agenda.
Just because some a$$hole starts bitching about his customer 'rights' being infringed doesn't invalidate the need for the majority to be treated as a customer...that's why we have 'innocent until proven guilty' in most civilised countries...we are not letting the few dictate our thinking....
Just because some a$$hole starts bitching about his customer 'rights' being infringed doesn't invalidate the need for the majority to be treated as a customer...that's why we have 'innocent until proven guilty' in most civilised countries...we are not letting the few dictate our thinking....
Baca
Brilliant!!!
Did you invent the 6 pack?
EDIT ADDED: The yard gnome too. But my version was the 10 pack. TFP
Brilliant!!!
Did you invent the 6 pack?
EDIT ADDED: The yard gnome too. But my version was the 10 pack. TFP
Originally posted by Buddha 3:
the product or service you buy is basically the infrastructure that enables you to play. In other words, as a customer you are free to bitch and moan about the facilities on site, the layout, the queues at the fillstation, whatever. But as soon as you step inside the netting, you are a player first, and a customer later. If refs would make adaptations for you or your team, they would beasically be short changing another team. All you can ask for from a ref (besides knowing the rules and such) is consistency. That way you know that any other teams would be treated the same way as you are.
Originally posted by Baca Loco:
A) the event Ultimate should have no power to alter on field results--only hand out significant penalties that effect more than a single game or match; like disqualifications or suspensions.
B) the organizers policy should be clear and publicized
C) Field Ultimates are final authority in game calls; no recourse, no outside interference
D) the individuals placed in those positions have to know the rules front to back
The player/customer distinction isn't the problem. The problem is defining what services are being provided and what the customer can reasonably expect. The organizer is providing an environment for competition, not a result. Between those two things there's lots of room for discussion.
Combine Buddha and Baca's comments and I think you have an excellent description of the event organizer's responsibility towards the paying customer/player. They need to provide the infrastructure and environment to foster a safe, fair competition.
Part of that environment is providing a reliable referee staff capable of making fair, unbiased calls. If the referees are incompetent, it's definitely the promoters responsiblity to look into it as it affects the overall tournament conditions. Disagreement over a specific call is something that should be handled on the field where the call took place. It doesn't affect other teams (outside the two who are playing) so shouldn't be in the promotors purview.
Referees should treat players with a certain level of respect. It's called professionalism. Maintaining a professional manner is one of the most effective ways to deal with players on the field. However, this doesn't mean referees should be punching bags (verbal or otherwise) for players to vent their frustration on.
the product or service you buy is basically the infrastructure that enables you to play. In other words, as a customer you are free to bitch and moan about the facilities on site, the layout, the queues at the fillstation, whatever. But as soon as you step inside the netting, you are a player first, and a customer later. If refs would make adaptations for you or your team, they would beasically be short changing another team. All you can ask for from a ref (besides knowing the rules and such) is consistency. That way you know that any other teams would be treated the same way as you are.
Originally posted by Baca Loco:
A) the event Ultimate should have no power to alter on field results--only hand out significant penalties that effect more than a single game or match; like disqualifications or suspensions.
B) the organizers policy should be clear and publicized
C) Field Ultimates are final authority in game calls; no recourse, no outside interference
D) the individuals placed in those positions have to know the rules front to back
The player/customer distinction isn't the problem. The problem is defining what services are being provided and what the customer can reasonably expect. The organizer is providing an environment for competition, not a result. Between those two things there's lots of room for discussion.
Combine Buddha and Baca's comments and I think you have an excellent description of the event organizer's responsibility towards the paying customer/player. They need to provide the infrastructure and environment to foster a safe, fair competition.
Part of that environment is providing a reliable referee staff capable of making fair, unbiased calls. If the referees are incompetent, it's definitely the promoters responsiblity to look into it as it affects the overall tournament conditions. Disagreement over a specific call is something that should be handled on the field where the call took place. It doesn't affect other teams (outside the two who are playing) so shouldn't be in the promotors purview.
Referees should treat players with a certain level of respect. It's called professionalism. Maintaining a professional manner is one of the most effective ways to deal with players on the field. However, this doesn't mean referees should be punching bags (verbal or otherwise) for players to vent their frustration on.
Nick -
Reffing NPPL for the last two years, I've seen the efforts they're putting into their ref program. All NPPL refs now go through a training course and have to pass a written test. While this doesn't garauntee they'll be great refs, it does improve the basic skills and knowledge of the refs. In addition, they evaluate the referees at each event. As time goes on, we're developing more qualified refs, both in numbers and in skil. Eventually (I hope) we'll have a full traveling crew of experienced, top quality refs for each event.
As I said in my previous post, the decorum of any referees on my field is important to me, as it is to the NPPL. It's always discussed in the pre-event ref meetings. We try to be as professional as possible, but it's not always easy to do this when you're on the field for 12 hours, with players constantly arguing calls. If we get a little short sometimes, it's because we're only human. However, there's no excuse for a ref uttering obscenities, just as it isn't for the players.
Referees not accountable? NPPL reviews tapes of all the games it films, as well as monitoring fields throughout the tournament. If a referee isn't capable of performing to the NPPL standards, they're not invited back. And don't think we'll leave him (or her) on the field either. I've had referees who couldn't make the grade removed or reassigned during an event.
Reffing NPPL for the last two years, I've seen the efforts they're putting into their ref program. All NPPL refs now go through a training course and have to pass a written test. While this doesn't garauntee they'll be great refs, it does improve the basic skills and knowledge of the refs. In addition, they evaluate the referees at each event. As time goes on, we're developing more qualified refs, both in numbers and in skil. Eventually (I hope) we'll have a full traveling crew of experienced, top quality refs for each event.
As I said in my previous post, the decorum of any referees on my field is important to me, as it is to the NPPL. It's always discussed in the pre-event ref meetings. We try to be as professional as possible, but it's not always easy to do this when you're on the field for 12 hours, with players constantly arguing calls. If we get a little short sometimes, it's because we're only human. However, there's no excuse for a ref uttering obscenities, just as it isn't for the players.
Referees not accountable? NPPL reviews tapes of all the games it films, as well as monitoring fields throughout the tournament. If a referee isn't capable of performing to the NPPL standards, they're not invited back. And don't think we'll leave him (or her) on the field either. I've had referees who couldn't make the grade removed or reassigned during an event.
Mike
Since I'm in charge of recruiting and training all the pro referees in Millennium I can tell you the way I do it.
First I recruit judges based on their experience and recommendations. All judging candidates must have reffed pro games at a major league level. The only exception to that is those who have reffed in the Nordic Series and those I have recruited from there have done an excellent job.
I have a written test with difficult scenarios that I send to all the 7-player pro judge recruits. This is not so much to eliminate recruits as it is to get a discussion going and provoke some thought. We've had similar rules discussions about X Ball via e-mail.
At the events we discuss rules and practical issues from mid-afternoon on Thursdays all the way through all the judges' and captains' meetings.
All the pro judges are taught to be courteous and professional. They are also aware that they must perform competently or they will be replaced. Whenever any complaints are brought to me or the head referees we always follow up. The few times that I have heard complaints about rude or disrespectful reffing I have talked to the individual or the head referee about it.
Concerning the team judges who are reffing for points, we go over the rules and their responsibilities in the marshalls' meetings. That is why it so important for the teams to attend the marshalls' meeting and that is why they will get their points reduced if they don't.
Our head referees are supposed to guide and supervise the reffing teams so that the reffing is consistent and fair. Our head referees evaluate their performance and can give them a good review that could help them win the reffing prize or cut their reffing points if they seriously fail to perform.
I believe we've made a lot of progress this year with reffing in Millennium but we've still got a long way to go. I look forward to the day when we can have all-pro reffing and a substantial budget for training workshops.
If you have any constructive suggestions on how we could improve things please let me hear them. You can also talk to Adam Stocks or Andy Scutt since they are also very involved. Our ambition is to have the best reffing program in the business.
Steve
There are some very good points brought up here.Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
How come players are accountable for more or less everything they do - but nobody has yet come up with rules for judges, so that they are also accountable for their actions (not thinking of a specific situation here - just generally).
I my time I've seen some judges be complete pricks - and the only thing an ultimate or organiser can do is shrug and say "sorry - there is no leeway in the rules for me to do anything".......
I would like to see judges have (at least) rules for decorum.
I'd also like if judges were required to pass a test before they got to judge - to demonstrate knowledge of the rules..... not just the letter of the law - but the meaning behind them.
If judges knew they were to pass a test the night before the event, and failing it, they would not get to judge and get no expenses reimbursed, I'll bet you people would actually read the rules before showing up
In other sports, judges/refs start at the lowest level, and graduate through the levels..... that doesn't happen in paintball - where more or less everyone willing can get to judge, ability and knowledge notwithstanding.
Since I'm in charge of recruiting and training all the pro referees in Millennium I can tell you the way I do it.
First I recruit judges based on their experience and recommendations. All judging candidates must have reffed pro games at a major league level. The only exception to that is those who have reffed in the Nordic Series and those I have recruited from there have done an excellent job.
I have a written test with difficult scenarios that I send to all the 7-player pro judge recruits. This is not so much to eliminate recruits as it is to get a discussion going and provoke some thought. We've had similar rules discussions about X Ball via e-mail.
At the events we discuss rules and practical issues from mid-afternoon on Thursdays all the way through all the judges' and captains' meetings.
All the pro judges are taught to be courteous and professional. They are also aware that they must perform competently or they will be replaced. Whenever any complaints are brought to me or the head referees we always follow up. The few times that I have heard complaints about rude or disrespectful reffing I have talked to the individual or the head referee about it.
Concerning the team judges who are reffing for points, we go over the rules and their responsibilities in the marshalls' meetings. That is why it so important for the teams to attend the marshalls' meeting and that is why they will get their points reduced if they don't.
Our head referees are supposed to guide and supervise the reffing teams so that the reffing is consistent and fair. Our head referees evaluate their performance and can give them a good review that could help them win the reffing prize or cut their reffing points if they seriously fail to perform.
I believe we've made a lot of progress this year with reffing in Millennium but we've still got a long way to go. I look forward to the day when we can have all-pro reffing and a substantial budget for training workshops.
If you have any constructive suggestions on how we could improve things please let me hear them. You can also talk to Adam Stocks or Andy Scutt since they are also very involved. Our ambition is to have the best reffing program in the business.
Steve