Fight Club: new MS Rule

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Yay - I thought you had given up, saw you on here hours ago and just coudln't work out why you were so shy...

Sorry was my post too long for you? Too many big words?

Fact is, if you are expecting the refs to get to the bottom of every incident and make these decisions in the midst of the game then you have not played top level paintball.

Then you have never reffed top flight painball either.


Then I see why you have the view that you have. Your problem is twofold:
Firstly, you have no respect, or real understanding, of what refs do. This is apparent, and it is going to be difficult for me to make you understand the complexities of the job at the sharp end if you have so little knowledge of it. You are talking purely from a players perspective,

But I would be interested to see how you combat my own points, rather than regurgitating the same stuff about how low-life refs should know it all anyway...

Try not to keep me waiting so long though, or if you must, come up with something better.

Yes i was up a while ago but i had some things to do that took precedence over this. Yes your post was a bit long,not as long as the one i'm currently answering If you think that using big words or making the posts longer and longer actually makes you right, i think you must be related to Brockdorff (no offence nick) how ever i do have a question for you are you connected with Red Merkin by any chance ?

Anyway back to the Reply:
Yes i do expect Refs to be able to make decisions in the midst of a game, that's what they are there for. Blindly following the rule book like a copper out of training school does not make for good policeing.

As for not playing/ reffing at the top level. That i will let others who know me, decide if i have played/ reffed at the top level or not. Like Nick Brockdorff and Robbo I do not use a cover name i am confident of my paintballing credentials.

You say that i have no respect or understanding of what Refs do.
that i am talking purely from a players perspective, and that i am regurgitating the same stuff about how low-life refs should know it all anyway.

Now unless they've just recruited a load of jonnies from down the job centre (which i have kinda seen in the past) the Refs are Players but with out guns for a couple of days. They should know what's what and should be competent enough to make a decision. If not, they should not put themselves up for Reffing. i didn't say that they should know it all and i certainly did not call refs 'Low- Lifes'

I cannot come up with anything better than refs using their common sense.So i may have to concede that you are indeed right to champion the MS decision to evict as many customers from the field for the slightest infraction as many times they can because it's perceived to be easier than doing the job properly.

Regards Ralph

 

[Missy Q]

Yes i was up a while ago but i had some things to do that took precedence over this. Yes your post was a bit long,not as long as the one i'm currently answering If you think that using big words or making the posts longer and longer actually makes you right, i think you must be related to Brockdorff (no offence nick) how ever i do have a question for you are you connected with Red Merkin by any chance ?

Presumably you think this is amusing. I read it twice looking for some wit, but found this paragraph totally pointless, and have thus discarded it.

Yes i do expect Refs to be able to make decisions in the midst of a game, that's what they are there for. Blindly following the rule book like a copper out of training school does not make for good policeing.

After careful thought I find that I agree with the first part of this. I however believe that the greater latitude the refs are 'encumbered with' on the field the larger the area of latitude the player can exploit, which was the problem with the first rule and the reason it was changed.

As for not playing/ reffing at the top level. That i will let others who know me, decide if i have played/ reffed at the top level or not. Like Nick Brockdorff and Robbo I do not use a cover name i am confident of my paintballing credentials.

I don't get it. Ae you saying that you ref/play top level NPPL or PSP events or not? Instead of letting third parties who are not involved in this debate decide whether you are even qualified to comment, why not simply tell me what experience you have? In fact don't. If you were involved at the top level I would know about it.

You say that i have no respect or understanding of what Refs do.

At the top level, yes, thats what I am saying, and not without some justification - I did read your posts first.

Now unless they've just recruited a load of jonnies from down the job centre (which i have kinda seen in the past) the Refs are Players but with out guns for a couple of days. They should know what's what and should be competent enough to make a decision. If not, they should not put themselves up for Reffing. i didn't say that they should know it all and i certainly did not call refs 'Low- Lifes'

You see - this is how I know you don't have the experience, you are in UK paintball world. NPPL/PSP refs have to take courses in reffing, how to position themselves on the field, which way to look, how to anticipate action and how to recognise dummy calls and maintain thier position and focus under misdirection. Refs have skills too, and at the top level they really need them. You can't take the guns off the players and send them out to ref the big leagues like you kids do down the Dartford 7's etc. I am talking about a whole other level of paintball competition, and one that you don't seem to be aware of.

I cannot come up with anything better than refs using their common sense.So i may have to concede that you are indeed right to champion the MS decision to evict as many customers from the field for the slightest infraction as many times they can because it's perceived to be easier than doing the job properly.

OK, now if you are going to concede, do so gracefully please. You came on here with your 'one reason and one reason only' comment, set yourself up for a one-sided debate which was so easy I am actually embarrassed to win it, and take almost no satisfaction from it at all. I did not realise how inexperienced you are and now I almost feel like a bully for not realising how mis-matched we were.

One more thing though - your last paragraph, if I was a ref, would piss me off. When I said you had no respect for refs, that is what I was talking about. You should check yo-self before you wreck yo-self, refs have a habit of remembering the tossers who think thier job is easy and that they need to be told to do it 'properly'.

Go practice.

 

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Missy Q
I don't get it. Ae you saying that you ref/play top level NPPL or PSP events or not? Instead of letting third parties who are not involved in this debate decide whether you are even qualified to comment, why not simply tell me what experience you have? In fact don't. If you were involved at the top level I would know about it.
You see - this is how I know you don't have the experience, you are in UK paintball world. NPPL/PSP refs have to take courses in reffing, how to position themselves on the field, which way to look, how to anticipate action and how to recognise dummy calls and maintain thier position and focus under misdirection. Refs have skills too, and at the top level they really need them. I am talking about a whole other level of paintball competition, and one that you don't seem to be aware of.
OK, now if you are going to concede, do so gracefully please. You came on here with your 'one reason and one reason only' comment, set yourself up for a one-sided debate which was so easy I am actually embarrassed to win it, and take almost no satisfaction from it at all. I did not realise how inexperienced you are and now I almost feel like a bully for not realising how mis-matched we were.

I only needed one reason and one reason only.
I was asked to step up to the plate to state my case, which i have done consistantly.
I have tried to avoid moving the goal posts.

You say that NPPL/PSP refs take courses in Reffing. This i applaud but i thought that this was a MS topic and although a standardisation (Not 2 sure if that is a word) of refs worldwide is a good idea. That again however is a different topic altogether.
The Refs for the Ms are taken from Div 1 teams that volunteer. It does not say anything about having reffing qualifications. That does not however detract from their ability to be able to make a simple commonsense decision.
If you are going down the road of a that Pro players need Pro Refs and as the stakes are so high. the punishments need to be in line with the crime as maybe the case in the US. Then i would tend to agree with you but by enlarge the MS has not yet reached that overall standard of Playing / Reffing which again is a completley different Topic.
The MS had decided recently that Nexus and others were to be ommited from the MS without so much as a by your leave. Looks to that they've done the same thing here with a carte blanch blanket rule that does not let refs make commonsense decisions.
Thats not the fault of the refs and i did never inferred as much

As for for being embarrased about winning as it's been such a miss-match and that you feel like a bully. Why should you feel this way ? You dont know me or what experience i may have and as you dont know me you make the assumption that i am not qualified to be in this debate as you know everyone at the top level. That borders on arrogance.
Please try and stay on the Topic of the new MS rule

Regards Ralph

 

[Baca Loco]

Our freshness dating has expired. Even so I find I'm not particularly interested so am opening the thread to comments and additional "discourse."

 

[Missy Q]

Ralph, after re-reading my post, I would like to excuse my 'arrogance' and agree that that is indeed how it comes across. I think you had a rough deal with the 'debate' as, to be honest with you, I think most people see it as a positive and necessary rule. As such, you were struggling somewhat to argue against it, I applaud you for stepping up and trying though. I do think that we were talking about different levels of competition, and if the MS refs are not able to implement a rule such as this and police it accordingly, then I do concede that perhaps they are not at the standard I would expect them to be in a series that claims to be a 'major', and the best in Europe. I had understood that the MS did use trained/dedicated refs and I am shocked that they still use players 'off the street', so on that score we were at cross purposes. Nevertheless, I still think its a good rule.

That said I enjoyed the debate, and would like to thank you for your participation, look forward to sharing many a distastful joke with you on the boards in the future, and again, please excuse my arrogant tone. You seem like a nice chap and I wish you well.



ps - I still won though.

 

[Manning26]

I suppose I'm interested in how this will affect the flow of the game. I'm picturing a lot of trenching and long-balling... which is always a good time.

 

[Chicago]

Missy is pretty much right here. Whether a player knows they were hit or not is irrelevant. They were hit, and they were playing.

I'll add a bit of reasoning to Missy's argument though.

A player gets an unobvious hit. Either the player has reason to know they are hit, or they don't.

If they know, and they continue to play, I think we can all agree they deserve a penalty.

If they don't know, the new MS rule proposes they should get the penalty and Ralph here says they shouldn't.

Here's the problem with Ralph's position:

Refs will pull people who have hits on them. If you get an unobvious hit and a ref hasn't pulled you, under Ralph's rule you just got a free pass to keep playing. There is absolutely no reason to call yourself out because there is no penalty for continuing to play. The worst thing that can happen to you is you get eliminated later, which is better than calling yourself out now.

So, you have a choice. You can let anyone with an unobvious hit play until they get pulled (so now paintball isn't about shooting the other player, it's about the refs seeing that another player has been shot), or you can penalize ALL people who have been playing with hits, whether they know about it or not.

And really, why wouldn't you want to penalize EVERYONE playing with a hit, even if they didn't know about it? If I shoot you, and you keep playing, isn't it unfair to me that you keep playing? If I shoot you, and you keep playing, is it suddenly fair that you got to keep playing just because you didn't know I shot you?

 

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Chicago

If they don't know, the new MS rule proposes they should get the penalty and Ralph here says they shouldn't.
Here's the problem with Ralph's position:
Refs will pull people who have hits on them. If you get an unobvious hit and a ref hasn't pulled you, under Ralph's rule you just got a free pass to keep playing. There is absolutely no reason to call yourself out because there is no penalty for continuing to play. The worst thing that can happen to you is you get eliminated later, which is better than calling yourself out now.
So, you have a choice. You can let anyone with an unobvious hit play until they get pulled (so now paintball isn't about shooting the other player, it's about the refs seeing that another player has been shot), or you can penalize ALL people who have been playing with hits, whether they know about it or not.

i'm getting a little fed up with the high and mighty trying to brow beat me.

If the player DOES NOT KNOW that they have been hit. What in the hell is the player supposed to do ??????!!!!!!!!!.
Lets put it this way and hopefully i'll get my point across
Lets just say that you went on Holiday to some far off tropical paradise. While you were there you catch a contagious lethal disease but you dont know. You get on the plane and go home a while later you feel unwell and go to the doctors and they tell that you have this disease. It then turns out that others that were on your plane have died as a result of your infection.
You would not be held for murder /manslaughter whatever, because you could not have known that you had it.

Back to paintball: I have never said that offenders should not be punished i think that 1-4-1 rule is one of the best. All that i object to is that it will be used in every single case.
Enforce the rules by all means but use commonsense.

 

[Missy Q]

Ralph, the 'Outbreak' example is beneath you. I doubt even Dustin Hffman himself would blame the unsuspecting and 'soon to be dead' tourist on the plane.
However paintballs basic rules are clear. Go out when you are hit. We ALL want people to go out when we shoot them. If they don't its unfair, and redress is required.

Believe me, Chicago takes no pleasure from agreeing with me, if he agrees with me, it probably means he knows I am right, and it certainly not because he wants to give me any kind of 'back-up', and nor do I think he was brow-beating you, in my opinion.

In fact - there were about 5 people who wanted to argue for the rule in the debate, and only you that wanted to argue against it. I think you may find that you like the rule once you are on the field, so long as you play an honest game and expect others to do the same.

 

[Ralph]

It's late and i'm a bit tired and to be honest i read chicago's post before i read yours and had a bit of a feeling that it was about to be open season.

I enjoyed the debate, much to daughters annoyance as i kept throwing her off the comp at every opportunity