EXL 2k5????

[Intheno]

a pessimistic, if generally correct summary of the situation I think, my oh-so-red Comrade. Your angle is based on the ideal that the teams should be in some way expectant of sponsorship through the league. wheras mine is, I believe, more realistic in the world we (you) live in, whether we like it or not.
I think the teams in the NPPL have a good vehicle to attract sponsors. There are DVD's , TV shows, media reports issued by the NPPL, Buku news coverage, and a solid theater to display a teams potential promotional value to sponsors. If the league have provided this what else do you think the teams should get from them?
On the other hand, although I accept the popularity of the format of X-ball, I do not see what teams in the PSP/X-ball camp (other than 9 NXL teams' hopeful expectations based on recurring and undelivered promises) can similarly offer.

Companies have in fact expressed interest to the NPPL about sponsoring paintball teams (as well as the league) to get increased exposure. I do believe this is the start of what will be a continuing trend. The NPPL will need a procedure to vet these inquiries which is not yet in place. it will be a difficult situation but I think Chuck and Camille should be relyed on to handle it fairly.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Intheno
1--a pessimistic, if generally correct summary of the situation I think, my oh-so-red Comrade.
2--Your angle is based on the ideal that the teams should be in some way expectant of sponsorship through the league. wheras mine is, I believe, more realistic in the world we (you) live in, whether we like it or not.
3--I think the teams in the NPPL have a good vehicle to attract sponsors. There are DVD's , TV shows, media reports issued by the NPPL, Buku news coverage, and a solid theater to display a teams potential promotional value to sponsors.
4--If the league have provided this what else do you think the teams should get from them?
5--On the other hand, although I accept the popularity of the format of X-ball, I do not see what teams in the PSP/X-ball camp (other than 9 NXL teams' hopeful expectations based on recurring and undelivered promises) can similarly offer.

6--Companies have in fact expressed interest to the NPPL about sponsoring paintball teams (as well as the league) to get increased exposure. I do believe this is the start of what will be a continuing trend.
7--The NPPL will need a procedure to vet these inquiries which is not yet in place. it will be a difficult situation but I think Chuck and Camille should be relyed on to handle it fairly.

1--at last, we agree on something except I would consider my viewpoint realistic, not pessimistic, while I would consider your usual fair to be shine-ola. (For those unfamiliar with the colloquial southernism it refers to something less than total b.s. but in the same neighborhood. )
2--sponsorship? No. In fact I think the Pro teams could easily do without the NPPL (or the NXL for that matter) altogether excepting that their current sponsors, or a majority thereof, wouldn't allow it as the investment has been made in the league(s). My view is that right this minute the NPPL needs the teams as much as the teams need them and if the teams had any sense they would use this opportunity to protect their interests for the future.
3--meanwhile all those "vehicles" return profit to the league while merely offering some unspecified maybes to the teams. Please see number 2 for my views on that. I don't begrudge PP all the profits they can manage but if it's every man for himself I'm simply suggesting the teams should be doing the same instead of happily accepting table scraps from Massah NPPL.
4--What league without the teams? The truth is the teams don't need the league--the league needs the teams. (Later on that won't be true but right now it is.)
5--conceptually the NXL if properly run and developed offers precisely what other professional sports deliver to the players. (Granted, at present, that's a mighty large if--)
Conceptually the NPPL/PP offers itself as middleman to a happy tomorrow but as middleman it isn't doing anything in reality that the teams couldn't do for themselves if they were so inclined and capable of marginally cooperating in their own best interests.
6--sure. Let's see, I can spend X and be associated with The SOON TO BE TOP LEAGUE IN PAINTBALL or I can put my money on a team that may or may not even be a pro team next season. Smart money goes to the league, extra promotional money for product may go some team(s).
7--the NPPL will need an unconnected outside party to act as clearinghouse cause anything else is prima faciae corrupt. Which isn't to impugn either Camille or Chuck but you can't have reps of the league responsible for dishing out potential cash connections to chosen teams.

 

[Intheno]

what teams 'need' is not the same as what teams 'want'. do teams 'need' the league? No, they could go play in the mountains if they wanted.
Do they 'want' the league - clearly so.
The players have jobs, school etc and want play paintball. They generally want someone else to create the enjoyable platform to satisfy this want, supply and demand I suppose, which is a rule of business. If all the teams refused to support the league, it would cease to exist. That much is undenyable. The fact is that the players appreciate the league and enjoy it. if all the teams deciced to invest thier own time, money and hard work, they could, its a free world. I for one would rather someone else went through the pain, so I could enjoy the forum created.

Presumably you assume that the NPPL/PP is making bank? If you were to discover that it is not, would you still urge the players to'go it alone'? Do you think that is in thiwr interests. I don't, but then we generally disagree on fundamentals rather than detail.
You continually claim that the teams should 'rise up' and realise it is them that hold the power and not the league. My argument is that the players are fully aware of this, but think that the NPPL is doing a great job, and perhaps they could not do a better one themselves without some (very) serious investment of time, money and intellect, and a large degree of cohesion which would likely be the most difficult aspect.

I ake your point oon the last item. It is a tricky area.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Intheno
1--Presumably you assume that the NPPL/PP is making bank? 2--If you were to discover that it is not, would you still urge the players to'go it alone'? Do you think that is in thiwr interests. I don't, but then we generally disagree on fundamentals rather than detail.
3--You continually claim that the teams should 'rise up' and realise it is them that hold the power and not the league. My argument is that the players are fully aware of this, but think that the NPPL is doing a great job, and perhaps they could not do a better one themselves without some (very) serious investment of time, money and intellect, and a large degree of cohesion which would likely be the most difficult aspect.

4--I ake your point oon the last item. It is a tricky area.

A real discussion. Nice change of pace.
1--Presumably it is all working out well enough to convince everyone involved to keep on plugging away.
2--I'm not urging the players go it alone. I'm urging the Pro Teams to consider all the options open to them including taking control of their own destinies. The majority of players don't have that option and as long as they remain pay to play the NPPL is swell.
As to what is in their interests I think if they truly believed in Paintball and were serious about being real professional athletes they would want more control over their futures. In truth I don't think most of them have a clue and are used to having somebody else do for them, tell them what to do and in exchange they get somebody else's money to go play. It's all they know and the system they are stuck in so what alternative is there? I'm simply suggesting there are alternatives and while the choices needn't be as radical as the ones I sometimes suggest if nobody is willing to even talk about pushing the envelope, it'll never happen.
3--You could very well be right but as long as power is held in a few hands only we'll never really know.
4--isn't that what Kofi Annan said when it was pointed out his office was obstructing release of critical documents in the oil-for-food scandal?

PS--no pleasing some people. You your own self asked me to come up with an alternative since I was critical of aspects of the status quo and when I do you don't seem to like the alternatives much either.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Intheno

You're still debating as if someone was trying to fault the NPPL/PP for their actions.

I don't think anyone is - I think everyone can agree they are doing a splendid job at conducting their business, which is to run events.

If I was a promoter, I would HOPE to be able to as professional a job as the NPPL/PP is doing.

What I am getting at - and what I THINK Paul is also getting at, is that the TEAMS do not realise they are on the other side of the table..... and will be so to an increasing degree in the years to come..... and if they do not realise that pretty soon, they will find theselves in a very much worse bargaining position, when the LEAGUE has become the primary vehicle for paintball in the media, and the individual team becomes inconsequential.

That changeover happens extremely quickly, once tv becomes involved in a major way.

Paintball is starting to become an anomoly in sports, in terms of how the sport is organised (well - it always was, but it mattered little back in the day, when everyone was paying his own way).

There are 3 basic ways to run professional sports, that benefit the teams as much as the event promoters:

- A team owned league (NFL/MLB/NBA/NFL/etc.)

- A federation owned league (Football (soccer)/Handball/most any European team sport)

- A privately owned league with a the teams/athletes having major influence and getting profits shared (Formula 1/etc.)

What paintball is heading towards now, is the third example, only.... the importance of having real influence escapes the teams at the moment.... and if they do not wise up, it will be their downfall.

Without the teams being organised and having real influence, pretty soon the teams will become pawns, that are easily replaced, and that lose any ability to excert pressure on the league.

Again - I am not trying to say the league has any alterior or shady motives here... I'm merely saying that if I owned a league, I would want to retain as much power myself, and not be handing it out from the goodness of my heart

Nick

 

[Baca Loco]

There you go, Nick.
That is in large measure precisely what I'm saying and further, I think it's undeniably true.

My only modification would be Version 3 minus the influence and profit sharing.


PS--nor was the THINK lost on me.

 

[Intheno]

bollox, I am just adding some fact, common sense and real world thinking to your paintball utopia theories. You guys have great idea's but always leave out one thing. Where is the money coming from? And don't say TV, you have more sense than that!

Alternatives only become alternatives when they are practical, affordable and implementable. Otherwise they are just half thought out opinions based on too little practical knowledge and too much wishful thinking, usually involving the words 'Television' and 'big outside sponsors' without really deailing how these things are attained, or who pays to attain them.

Anyway, think what you think. There are 2 sides to every debate and I think they are established already.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Ehmmm....

....I thought the whole premise of this debate was TV?

Without it, none of the scenarios put forth are valid.

Nick

 

[HERMITT]

AAAhhh here we go again. TV as the saviour of our beloved sport. Tsk Tsk, when will we learn? Sort out your own back yard before you ask someone to play in it. TV is never gonna happen like we want it to!

 

[Intheno]

Nick, if you had a time machine and could go forward 10 years, you might make a good argument. But you are in 2005, and you are a dreamer.
Drag yourself back to earth and deal with todays situation, or freeze yourself for a decade, then when they thaw you out you can be taken seriously.
Did you see the Smart Parts commercial/NXL Show on ESPN yesterday? If not, then watch it, it just set us back another 2 years or more. Better make that 12 years to be frozen....

happy fantasies!