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Evil Vs KAPP 'cheating' incident

shamu

Tonight we dine in hell
Apr 17, 2002
835
0
0
Now-Cal
Re:

Originally posted by Justin Owen
[BIf/when major series adopt this mentality of judging and enforcement of penalties, they'll clean up. Until then, the current systems will only favor the cheaters and the straight players will always be two steps behind...end of story.

~J~ [/B]
Justin - Come out to the next NPPL event and see how the judging is :D They're making the effort to have strict, competent judging. Anyone who went to the Huntington Beach event will tell you that. And the teams there learned pretty quickly that they needed to play straight up ball, not cheat, if they wanted to win.

The attitude expressed by Mike is pretty common in the US, I'm sad to say. And it's not just the major tournaments or top-level players either. You see rookie and novice teams with the same attitude, even in regional and local tournaments. They think that cheating is just part of the game, just another skill to learn like snap shooting. :(
 

Tyger

Old School, New Tricks
You know...

Perhaps we're looking at this all wrong. Perhaps the tournament players know best, and it's not thier responsibility to call themselves elimiated. I mean, come on! Baseball players don't call THEMSELVES out or safe! It's only right to lay all the burden of responsibility on the referees.

Ok, if that's the case, then perhaps we need to take the same steps that pro leagues do to curb cheating. Fines. MONEY fines. You don't pay, you don't play. Piazza got fined for charging the pitcher, after the pitcher beaned him with a ball. The pitcher was fined too. And this is "Spring Training"! Many football players have been fined for on-field violations. Jim McMahon, QB for the Bears '85 season, was fined for wearing an unauthorised logo on his headband. How many coaches have been fined for their fits? And don't even start on Bobby Knight.

You want to play with the "Big Boys"? Then be ready to ante up. So far, I don't see paintball players willing to make the sacrifices or the comittment nessary. That and, honestly, I don't think they really want it.

I personally think that tournament paintball players are more than happy with the game REMAINING obscure and unknown. Imagine for a moment some player's wipe being replayed on "Sportscenter", or at least the evening news, over and over again? And the commentator saying "Wow! Look at Joe wipe that hit! Then he mugs his whole tapeline, and the judges never even saw it! Wow! What a cheater!"

Paintball is SO not ready for that.

Back to topic tho. If the players are going to hold the refs accountable for 100% of the calls, then they better be willing ot take hte punishemnt that comes with that decision. And, frankly, they're not gonna do it.

-Tyger
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Re: Re:

Originally posted by shamu
Justin - Come out to the next NPPL event and see how the judging is :D They're making the effort to have strict, competent judging. Anyone who went to the Huntington Beach event will tell you that. And the teams there learned pretty quickly that they needed to play straight up ball, not cheat, if they wanted to win.
Whale, ya know I think you're swell and all but. . .I'm gonna disagree with you, at least a little.
For whatever reason there seems to be what might be characterized almost as a campaign to make more of the reffing at HB than it deserved or is fair. Let me also say most everyone worked hard and made a concerted effort to do a good job. But what we really got, as opposed to a new Golden Age of reffing, was more like Old Skool effort minus the Pro bias. There was a time when the NPPL was smaller and clubbier that Pro teams worked hard and generally did a very solid job. In recent years that quality had consistently deteriorated.
Along comes HB trumpeting unbiased, hard-working, Euro super refs but the reality was refs working the back lines on some fields were almost always out of position (the JT field comes to mind) and the wire 50's calls were often reduced to "pull 'em all" calls. I could say more but you get the idea, I imagine.
My point is, yes, HB stepped up the effort and overall quality relative to what we've seen of late but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Tyg--the reason there is no strict enforcement is because it's the "enforcer" who ends up paying the price as long as customers are the players. "You cheated, we're not gonna accept your money." :rolleyes:
 

Gyroscope

Pastor of Muppets
Aug 11, 2002
1,838
0
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Colorado
www.4q.cc
Funny enough, leaving the refs with the responsibility is what we were told to do at the last MSTS at the National Western Complex in Denver last fall. Mike Lynch runs this series, for those that don't know. We were told that the refs would pull our armbands when we were out. We were to play unless we were sure we were hit. The refs did penalize playing on with obvious hits, but you had to be fast to play on. The refs were fast, and even handed in my opinion. Believe it or not, this worked pretty well. Maybe not everyone who played the tournament felt that way, but it seemed like the guys were honest, if not perfect.

It wasn't hard to understand, although I got picked on a little for leaving the field and pulling my own armband when they got me clean. "There was no ref around" was the comment. I didn't want to risk a 1-4-1, though. I did keep playing when I got hit on the pack once, but they caught up to me and took my band before I did any damage. No 1-4-1, as it was on the pack and I had started to move when it happened. Seemed like a better risk, as it wasn't clear that I would have felt it. In fact, I heard it. I always get to cover before checking for breaks anyway. This time, a ref pulled me at about the time I would have been looking myself over. They were on it.

It may sound like chaos, but when the umpire says you're out, you're out. How hard is that? The key is that the umpires are obeyed. They aren't always respected, treated graciously, or allowed to do their job without catching hell from a manager, but they get to decide what happened and how the rules dictate the result. If there were revenue in playing, and I were caught pushing a lttle too hard, I'd pay a fine. If the fine were too high for me to afford, I'd make sure I didn't break the rules. That might change from week to week, the chances I am willing to take. The way I see it, if you can do the time, go do the crime. If not, well... innocence is the best way to stay out of trouble.

Another anecdote: at World Cup last fall, I was in a 1 on 3. I moved back into a corner. I took a hit on the elbow, glanced down and saw no paint, so I kept playing. The ref called me out because he said it broke on me, although the paint fill all sprayed off into space. I accepted this with good grace. We were told to expect this sort of thing on that particular field, so I wasn't surprised. I would have prefered to see consistency across all the fields in calls like that, but hey. At least these refs did as they said they would. And given that was the reffing environment in which we found ourselves, we played accordingly.

See, this is what an authority figure does: they enforce the law o' the land to the extent that they expect that law to be obeyed. Refs or marshalls are authority figures, and they provide the check on the rules and how seriously everyone takes them.

The penalty system of X-ball is great, but the real difference is that there are enough refs to follow everything that is going on. If every field had more referees than players, no one would get away with much. If there is only one umpire, you better hope it is a little league game. Hellthis applies to soccer, too. Never saw so many Oscar-worthy death scenes. It doesn't damage the credibility of the sport unless the marshalls let cheating go unpunished.
 

Jaime Menino

Active Member
Jun 19, 2002
121
0
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Lisbon, Portugal
I wonder it they already pratice cheatting. :confused:

"New Drill... you got shot and you´ve got 5 secs before the ref checks you out. You and you and you are refs, you are the splatted player, go!" :eek:

Cheers
Jaime
 

Red_Merkin

IMHO
Jul 9, 2001
1,418
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Montreal
"I was with the Naughty Dogs last year in Vegas and we were the best team there by far. But Trauma still won. I guess my point is who cares who the better team was that particular game. It doesnt matter. What matters is who won the tournament. I am done talking about this subject. KAPP is a great team and yes they played that field better than us. We play like sh!t on the JT field. As a matter of fact, of the 6 games we have lost this year 4 of them have been on the JT field. I look forward to seeing KAPP in the finals all year. I don't know if they cheated and I don't care if they cheated. I don't know if we cheated and I don't care if we did. CHEATING IS PART OF THE GAME. IF YOU GET CAUGHT THERE IS PENALTIES. When all of you guys are playing in the finals alongside Us and KAPP then you can come on here and talk sh!t. Till then let this topic die. They beat us, we won the tournament, we will play them in Vegas in the finals again and all this can start over."
what incident was this?
 

Gee

New Member
Mar 18, 2002
167
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Reading UK
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It happens but we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

Originally posted by Milhouse
Incidentally can you one for one for arguing in the millennium?
Sort of yes.

rule 12.61 allows you to 1-4-1 someone for failure to obey a judges instructions.
 

shamu

Tonight we dine in hell
Apr 17, 2002
835
0
0
Now-Cal
Re: Re: Re:

Originally posted by Baca Loco
... the reality was refs working the back lines on some fields were almost always out of position (the JT field comes to mind) and the wire 50's calls were often reduced to "pull 'em all" calls. I could say more but you get the idea, I imagine.
Not only am I not offended by that, I agree completely. As a judge, it pissed me off to see another judge standing behind the barricade with a shield over his head, instead of positioned where he should be (on the field).

I was a back center on my field. The only time I was behind the barricade was to pick up the flag. The rest of the time was Welt City :p

I think judging was a big improvement over World Cup, etc. Still has room to improve but at least the NPPL is making the effort.
 

TOOLE

Banned
Feb 27, 2003
1,115
0
61
the easy way to stop it is to make a big hoo-ha about it anywhere.

paintball is a sponsor driven sport and therefore once sponsors find that there teams are cheating, they kiss goobye to their spnsorship.

just don't accept it!!!!!
 

Red_Merkin

IMHO
Jul 9, 2001
1,418
0
0
Montreal
the easy way to stop it is to make a big hoo-ha about it anywhere.
paintball is a sponsor driven sport and therefore once sponsors find that there teams are cheating, they kiss goobye to their spnsorship
Depends on what the image is that the sponsors want their teams to create.
The Angel guys seem to want their players to have the bad boy image, maybe 'Evil' paintball want their team to come across as bad guys?

All sponsors want thier teams to help them market gear. As long as sponsored teams continue to stimulate sales, the sponsors are happy. Only major incidents like the Jeremy Salm sniper thing, will make sponsors take notice of the behavior of their teams.

Remember, paintball is industry driven, $$$ and all that, so sportsmanship really dosn't enter the equation.