Campaign Cup Gun Rules

[Bunkerkidz]

Well you say that not having a short trigger would lessen the amount of accidental shot s in the safety area, yes that is important, but now tell me, how many times does that happen, it happens but not that often...
Now awnser this, how many times do people get shot/bunkered on the field? I can say for one thing that it happens alot more times than accidental shots in the safe area...
Now i also know that both things are not comparable, as shots inside the safety area are a much more serious issue, but i don't think that ramping cuts it down that much.

As for your argument of ramping diminishing the impact of gun cheats, yes that is true, but i don't think that that is the way to go, you want to get rid of gun cheats, not diminish their impact...
So if you want to stop gun cheats, i would say you would need more policing and trained marshalls and especialized equipment and harsher penalties, not a rule that allows everyone to basicly have "cheating guns" (according to the rules before ramping was instituted)...
Now i have a somewhat biased point of view in what comes to ramping because i was shot in the back of the head while going to the deadbox something like 15 times, and i allmost passed out, and i know that it wouldn't have happened if ramping wasn't there, because that was just one person shooting at me, i don't even want to imagine if it was more than one person...
Now imagine that to someone's throat during a bunker move...that's potencially lethal, and just because it hasn't happened, that's one more reason not to give it space to happen...
I somewhat understand your support of ramping as i have read in your signature that you install Gun boards, i'm sure that ramping has given your business a boost, and that you're pretty happy with it, but that doesn't cut out all the negative side of it...

I still think that ramping is bad and that we'll all become worse players because of it...the NPPL teams don't use it and their games are 100 times better to watch IMO, more agressive, more moves, etc. So i'm afraid that that cuts the better for spectators argument, also it takes out alot of the skill in paintball, since it puts everyone on the same page, the ones that have spent countless hours practicing and the n00bs that started playing paintball a month ago...and that IMO is bad but is one of the main reasons that people like ramping because it gives them a shortcut, and they are all going to pay for it someday, maybe if something bad happens and ramping gets banned from tournaments and people suddenly realize that they can shoot about 8 bps because that's what you need to shoot with ramping, and that they can no longer run and shoot because they were used to not having to concentrate on shooting fast as well...maybe then people will realize that ramping isn't that good...i kinda hope that someone will realize that sooner.

Gil

 

[John C]

Gil, Thats more like it


The safe zone scenario has only happened once in my recollection, but the safe zone is full of people not wearing goggles, not just paintballers either, their mothers, fathers, friends and siblings. If something were to happen to a non player, I believe the consequences would be alot worse.

It is especially dangerous when multiple shots are fired though, as the first shot has the capacity to remove or rip the barrel sock, allowing the next ball (or 3) to exit the barrel at 300fps...
(that was what happened at the incident I remember)

I sympathise with you that you have been bonusballed, that is something people make light of that I really dont like. However I think the person holding the gun is much more responsible than the gun itself.
A similar incident of overshooting happened at the PA, and people instantly blamed ramping, until it was revealed that the gun didnt even have a ramping mode on it, the guy was just an idiot.

I also agree with you regarding the skill of shooting fast, but personally I would give up the rate of fire advantage I have to make the sport more enjoyable to play and watch.
Im sure you wont agree with me that ramping makes the sport more fun to play and watch, but that is a difference of opinion I dont see any way forward on.

John

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Bunkerkidz
1-- Now awnser this, how many times do people get shot/bunkered on the field?

2-- As for your argument of ramping diminishing the impact of gun cheats, yes that is true, but i don't think that that is the way to go,

3-- I still think that ramping is bad and that we'll all become worse players because of it...

4-- the NPPL teams don't use it and their games are 100 times better to watch IMO, more agressive, more moves, etc. So i'm afraid that that cuts the better for spectators argument,

Gil

This particular argument has been alternately simmering and raging here for quite some time. A quick search will uncover lots of threads and posts if you're interested. Normally, I would stay out of this but you seem to be under a variety of misconceptions so--

1--in the NXL we play with full auto capped at 15 and players are bunkered all the time, over and over again. It's not a problem because there are penalties for overshooting and the refs will call them on the occasions they occur.

2--you may not think it is the way to go but it has been demonstrated to be quite effective whereas no other policy is making a dent

3--please note which teams are leading the Semi-Pro division of the NPPL now. You will discover a preponderance of teams tied to the NXL. So apparently playing with F/A guns for 2 or 3 years hasn't substantially diminished their skills (of course--)

4--the notion the NPPL doesn't have ramping guns is completely and utterly laughable. The guns are out of control in the NPPL and so far semi-auto only is a happy fiction but nothing more as is the idea that 7-man games are more exciting or more aggressive than Xball.

 

[DYE HARD]

john c.
you are absolutely spot on, i would like to know how long bunkerkidz has been playing i would assume by the user name not long. probably his mum has just stopped wiping his back side for him......... You do not get hit any more with ramp mode now than you did or do on true semi

ramping brings all gun cheats down to the same level full stop.....

if you want to use semi crack on, but i and a lot of others so it seems would like to see the uk adopt ramp as our mode to shoot.

 

[Rabies]

If a ramping gun is bumped in the safe zone, chances are it will only discharge one shot, as the trigger has to be pulled several times for ramping to kick in. A "semi-only" gun with a hair trigger may well discharge several shots, the first of which may take the barrel sock off, leaving the rest to make a beeline for some unsuspecting punter's face.

On the field, I couldn't particularly care whether guns are ramping or not, as long as there's a level playing field for both teams. Guns have been FA in all but name for 3 years anyway, and in my experience you still get shot the same number of times (once if you're playing tight, many times if you're doing something silly.)

What I do feel makes a huge difference is a 15bps cap. It makes movement possible again in a game that was in danger of stagnating due to sheer volume of paint being thrown. Running across a 15bps lane and getting away with it is possible; at 22bps it's damn near impossible.

 

[Ben Frain]

I agree with John C - I would write more to support the theory but the last time I poured my heart into a thread on the subject the whole thread went awol.

Bottom line, I've played ramping tournies all this season, hand on heart I feel the gun cheating has diminished considerably and don't believe it to be any more dangerous than so-called 'semi'.

Can you answer Bunkerkidz, simple yes or no, have you ever played a 15BPS ramping tournament? Or are you basing your theories and rhetoric on idle conjecture?

 

[Missy Q]

I have something to add, not to make any particular point, but here goes.
I know that Travis Lemanski got soem 'extra Love' in 'PSP Pittsburgh', and had to go to get CAT scans etc.

Whether this problem is due to ramping, or just plain overshooting, is debatable. There were reports of ths sort of thing before ramping came along, but I would guess (and it is a guess) that people get shot more often these days. The Ramping issue does contribute to this. So does the character of the teams, which I think is at an all-time low. There isn't the respect for opponents that there used to be in paintball, there is less healthy (and friendly) competition and more petty squawking and screaming (in girls voices). The men have gone and the boys hide behind thier guns. A sad time, and probably more to do with the increase in disputes than ramping will ever be.

I only know of the Travis incident, and perhaps it is isolated, but he was dizzy after the event and had a mild concussion. Problem for the rampers is that if people do get hurt like this, the ROF will have to come own. Next year maybe you will be playing at 13bps? Or 10 perhaps?

No-one will ever be able to tell me that cheating is 'cool'. To combat cheating by changing the definition of the rules so that the previous problem is no longer classed as 'cheating' and is therefore not something to worry about will never make sense to me, but at the end of the day I don't really care. I think the behavior and downward spral of the general standard of people involved in our paintball society is a more disturbing problem. How long before participants in paintball sink to the lowest common denominator, and all we have left are the scumbags? No refs can cope with a bunch of people with no respect for them or the rules. To blatantly disregard the rules and beat up on the refs, shooting them continuously out of avarice for a call they made which was probably correct, yet not the one you were looking for, is fundamentally disgusting. Shooting someone in the head 20 times is disgusting. The same players going on to berate the refs for doing a crap job and the league for not enforcing rules better is ridiculous.

Sorry Ben, I don't want to hijack your thread. You asked for some examples and I gave you one, you can ignore the rest if you like. I got carried away for a while there...

 

[FAMINE]

Personally i have seen more injuries at rampin tournies than semi.

The problem with rampin is run throughs and muggin.

We can all fire fast standing still, but very few can hit 15bps on the run. In the past this has controlled the number of times a player gets shot at close range. Now with ramping from what I have seen this isnt the case. Players getting mugged are taking 10+ shots at close range.
With this surely a safety issue arises.

Im not saying it didnt happen with semi only, just that its happening more now!

As for the UKPSF release, I believe it was meant to encompass ALL sites, rec and tourny. It was advise rather than a rule as the poor old UKPSF actually have little say over what sites do, yet are always turned to to clear up the mess afterwards.

What concerns me as a players and as a site owner is whether rampin could have a knock on effect in the UK.
Our laws are pretty useless regarding paintball, and until courts decide we just dont know. In the past we have always played safe, now i feel we are pushing it a little far and wouldnt take a lot for paintball in the UK to disappear!

Just another anti ramping point.

It was allowed in the UK as we couldnt catch the gun cheats. But isnt that still the case yet we have pretty much opened the gates for people to do as they wish whilst still not really being sure who is liable in the event of an injury.

Manafacturers arent (they have said not to use ramping)

So is it the organisers, the player using it or both?????

Are we all happy to play not knowing or is everyone insured to the hilt and doesnt really care???

 

[FAMINE]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
I agree with John C - I would write more to support the theory but the last time I poured my heart into a thread on the subject the whole thread went awol.

Bottom line, I've played ramping tournies all this season, hand on heart I feel the gun cheating has diminished considerably and don't believe it to be any more dangerous than so-called 'semi'.

Can you answer Bunkerkidz, simple yes or no, have you ever played a 15BPS ramping tournament? Or are you basing your theories and rhetoric on idle conjecture?

Well said Missy,

Allowing everyone to cheat doesnt solve the problem, it just makes more.
Now if the industry wasnt so damn corrupt and self financed I would say we could change it. But somehow I still feel the minority rule the majority and the split comes with organisers and players.
It doesnt matter if most of us players are against ramping, it was a cheap soloution to a problem the organisers had. The only way we can change that is to walk, now i know some UK tournys are feeling the bite of players doing just that. Now all we gotta do is convince the no game rampers to play fair and maybe learn to do it unaided!

 

[FAMINE]

Bugger, quote should be from MissyQs post, pressed wrong button