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[Baca Loco]

Platitudes R' Us

Originally posted by Intheno
1--I thought the NPPL was capping the number of teams in each division next year, therefore negating the concern of lower level teams being edged out by other teams 'muscling in'.
2--I think this should address your point Baca.
3--As a rule, the teams competing would experience no real general change, but the upper level teams would get increasing exposure,
4--while the 'lower' teams would aspire to this and look to progress through the divisions, in the annual Promotion/relegation battles that see teams move up or down the league depending on performance, a system used successfully in European Soccer (football)
5--No closed shop, no big buck franchise, no unfair advantages, no 'job for life'

1--and I thought the NPPL was capping the number of participants at each event, too, but I've been proved wrong. So--
2--no, it really doesn't.
3--so are the upper level teams still paying their own way when this is TV and big outside sponsors are fronting some serious green?
4--Sounds lovely but leaves a whole host of issues unanswered. Since when do different levels compete together? Is it really the teams that are intended to be the draw or the product?
5--hang on, I thought next year the Pro division was gonna be restricted to the top what, 17, 18 teams that competed this year. That sounds rather like a closed shop to me. What are ya gonna do if the NXL suddenly implodes--deny those teams spots? Send the all to Division 1 for a year? And how do you continue to encourage the integration of NPPL and Mil if you're setting yourselves up now to deny Euro Pros spots? And if there are no franchises or something like just how are the "stars" gonna benefit--other than playing for prize money? What are you gonna do when Dynasty Inc. restricts the use of their images and demands a piece of the pie?

Just a few questions that come to mind.

Dannefaerd--I'm glad to see this is common knowledge in Kiwi country. Next time I'll check with y'all first.

 

[Dannefaerd]

Platitudes R' Us

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Dannefaerd--I'm glad to see this is common knowledge in Kiwi country. Next time I'll check with y'all first.

Not a problem You know where I am if ya need me .... (don't 'cha know that Kiwis can solve all the worlds problems)

Originally posted by Baca Loco
hang on, I thought next year the Pro division was gonna be restricted to the top what, 17, 18 teams that competed this year. That sounds rather like a closed shop to me. What are ya gonna do if the NXL suddenly implodes--deny those teams spots? Send the all to Division 1 for a year? And how do you continue to encourage the integration of NPPL and Mil if you're setting yourselves up now to deny Euro Pros spots? And if there are no franchises or something like just how are the "stars" gonna benefit--other than playing for prize money? What are you gonna do when Dynasty Inc. restricts the use of their images and demands a piece of the pie?

Yeah, 17 + the top team out of Div 1 if memory serves. And if the NXL does suddenly explode ... then yeah, at this stage you'd have to look to have them slot into Div 1 (now this is where memory does fail, but I don't recall if the promotion/relegation was spreading to the divisions under 'Pro' straight away).

Personally I don't believe that it will limit Euro Pro teams from being a part of it. Those teams that do have the resources to play NPPL fully are ... that's where they believe the competition/path to improvement is ... so as long as they can compete at a high level they will stay in the 'Pro' division without facing relegation. If new teams believe that they have what it takes to compete in the future ... then they stump up, play Div 1 (assuming they don't have to fight from Div 3 up over 3 years) and try to qualify the following year.

Now all bets are off if teams do need to start at Div 3, and work up a division a year ... I seriously doubt that any overseas teams would look to do that - or in fact play in the lower divisions as the experience they would gain would be minimal (unless you're Australian of course )

If the above did happen - then the other possibility would be teams selling their spots in higher divisions, and then the 'new' team registering a name change with the league. The whole system is going to be flawed as it is being done on team records, and not assigned to players as individuals.

 

[Steve Hancock]

Regarding players as individuals, If the NXL goes tits up. The teams could disband and the best players could be picked up by the 17 pro teams, and the less talented div 1 etc.

How big are the crowds at NPPL events? I was thinking that if you had a sperate pro league that run in the evenings of the tournament, Joe paintballer could have his games at the lower divisions and then get a shower, grab a beer and sit down to watch the pro's. It would make for a great weekend in my opinion.

I've not been to an NPPL event so i don't know whether this would work or whether something similar already happens.

 

[Jester1]

Not to digress, but there were portable potties right next to the Empire field

If the NXL were to implode, the NPPL should consider exanding the number of pro teams. That much pro talent suddenly becoming available would infuse the Pro division and truly make it "The best of the best."

I'd love to see Dynasty vs Aftershock, Dogs vs Ironmen, etc.

 

[Booya39]

do you mean Ironmen or Excessive???


...or do you mean Bobby's Assasins?

 

[Intheno]

OK Baca, lets deal with real life, not Utopia.

1. Not sure what you mean about being proved wrong, or what your point here is.
2. Never mind
3. The upper level teams paying thier own way? How many do this now?
From what I hear the Super 7 Series costs money to put on. Do you think that the teams would pay more cash when the events lost money? No, huh? But if the events make money they should get a peice? Do you think it is wrong if Pure Promotions (WDP)want to get some of thier investment back, or even turn a buck in a project that they have worked like dogs on? Waddaya reckon comrade?
4. The product is the draw for the media and outside sponsors. They do not know who the teams are. The teams are, I guess, a draw for some of the spectators that show up to watch them. You are a clever guy, you surely worked that out already
5. You are wrong, if the bottom 2 teams in Div 1 are relegated and the top teams from Div2 are promoted, it is not a closed shop. A closed shop is when you buy a place and are guarenteed to keep it no matter how much you suck. This is a proven system rarely used in the states, presumably as it is performance based, not dollar based.
And as for the Dynasty thing, I guess that would have to be dealt with if it ever happened. I don't think that is what Dynasty is about though. Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do?
and as for the NXL teams, don't half the original NXL players already play in the NPPL , and aren't their team names owned by the NXL anyway? You would just see players move, not teams.
I think you have to have rules, and the NPPL has tried to inform everyone of the format changes. Teams had a chance to get in this year. if they didn't, are you saying that the format should be completely re-hashed to accomodate teams that have 'changed their minds', and due to the success of the S7S they now want to jump over? Can you name another sport that would allow this?

OK, my fingers are tired.

 

[Baca Loco]

Or is that EUtopia?

Originally posted by Intheno
OK Baca, lets deal with real life, not Utopia.

1. Not sure what you mean about being proved wrong, or what your point here is.
3. The upper level teams paying thier own way? How many do this now?
From what I hear the Super 7 Series costs money to put on. Do you think that the teams would pay more cash when the events lost money? No, huh? But if the events make money they should get a peice? Do you think it is wrong if Pure Promotions (WDP)want to get some of thier investment back, or even turn a buck in a project that they have worked like dogs on? Waddaya reckon comrade?
4. The product is the draw for the media and outside sponsors. They do not know who the teams are. The teams are, I guess, a draw for some of the spectators that show up to watch them. You are a clever guy, you surely worked that out already
5. You are wrong, if the bottom 2 teams in Div 1 are relegated and the top teams from Div2 are promoted, it is not a closed shop. A closed shop is when you buy a place and are guarenteed to keep it no matter how much you suck. This is a proven system rarely used in the states, presumably as it is performance based, not dollar based.
5a--And as for the Dynasty thing, I guess that would have to be dealt with if it ever happened. I don't think that is what Dynasty is about though. Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do?
5b--and as for the NXL teams, don't half the original NXL players already play in the NPPL , and aren't their team names owned by the NXL anyway? You would just see players move, not teams.
I think you have to have rules, and the NPPL has tried to inform everyone of the format changes.
5c--Teams had a chance to get in this year. if they didn't, are you saying that the format should be completely re-hashed to accomodate teams that have 'changed their minds', and due to the success of the S7S they now want to jump over?
5d--Can you name another sport that would allow this?

OK, my fingers are tired.

Glad to have you back, Intheno. You're being appallingly well-behaved. I'm mildly disappointed.
1--simple. The NPPL announces a max registration. This number isn't really a max number because if there is sufficient reason it is changed. Like registration for Tampa or HB before it. That's okay with me but it does demonstrate that supposedly fixed positions aren't fixed at all. Hence, if there was sufficient reason, one could imagine the limitation on Pro teams, for example, also being un-fixed. That was the simple point. The more interesting consideration if you are so inclined is the criterion used to un-fix a fixed value.
3--perhaps my allusion wasn't clear. At some point in time should the NPPL gameplan pan out there will be considerably more money sluicing through the whole system. Presently the risk is taken on by the event presenters and the participants do no more than pay to play. Somewhere down that road the "pro" teams, the teams that have been elevated and celebrated, the teams and players the peeps want to see become a commodity in their own right and they aren't likely to accept today's status quo. Since you used the Euro football example perhaps you could explain how their system works to create and share profit as that's the model you suggested earlier applies.
4--yes, I did. Which is why I asked the question; particularly in light of the way the league is being promoted. Again, I personally don't object--PP and the NPPL are entitled to conduct business however they want.
5--I was just imagining a NPPL universe where the Assassins, the RL, the Americans, Strange, Trauma, AfterShock etc were all Div 1 teams. It would tend to make a mockery of the pro/div 1 distinction at a minimum. In general though I like relegation and promotion.
5a--I think it's what everyone in that potential position with half a brain would be about. Your 'product' theory presumes to one degree or another the teams and players are interchangeable and in a sense they are but in another way they aren't. Somewhere in the process the key participants validate the product and at that point, when they realize it, they will likely want a share of the proceeds. Man U ain't Man U without a premier league team's share of the top talent and that talent doesn't come free.
5b--half? Probably a little generous but so what? SEE 1 (again).
5c--not at all. PP can do whatever they want. I'm just wondering about the chicken/egg calculation.
5d--excepting we're not at the level of Sport just yet even though everyone likes to talk as if it were a done deal. As long as the particpating teams pay to play and the bulk of the money and power are confined to a core industry group there's always gonna be room for accomodation. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Baca Loco]

Btw, Kidz, please feel free to drag this thread back on track if'n you've got something to say about the PSP or Chi-town.

Intheno and I sorta got side-tracked My marginally sincere apologies as I can't promise not to do it again.

 

[Intheno]

Hey Baca,
I am behaving aren't I! Only because you are making intelligent statements (if a bit commie for my tastes)

To clear something up, I had heard that the Tampa event was re-opened at the request of Camille, and this was apparently because of the amount of extra teams that registered early. Camille cares about the NPPL teams. About 35 new teams signed up immediately after HB, meaning that when the event sold out there were teams that had played every NPPL event so far, and that are totally loyal to the league, that could not get in. Camille campaigned passionately for there to be a field added and extra refs and auxiliary staff brought in to accomodate these teams. Your statements insinuate that this has been done to 'boost the coffers' of PP, but in fact it may even cost more to increase the overall size and scale of the event. I do see how you would feel this validates your point, but I don't agree with you. There are ethics involved, and I think maybe the Europeans are more influenced by ethics than Americans (I do not mean this as an insult).
But all this could be wrong of course...

As for Soccer. The TV stations pay the league to show the games. There is a major league sponsor.
The teams/players are not paid by the league, the clubs are funded by thier fans, ticket sales, sponsors, merchandise and endorsements.
Players have side deals to endorse products in the media, and personal appearances. Often this revenue exceeds thier wages. If the team was not in the Premier league, they would not get these opportunities, the teams feel privileged to have the opportunity to play in the Premier league, it is what all players aspire to do, as it opens doors for them and betters thier careers.
If Man U get relegated, they go down and the league does without them, thier best players sign on to other teams because they want to play in the premier league. You don't let people buy a spot for a team in the league, to me this is ridiculous and not 'sporting'

As for the teams deciding they are bigger than the league and making demands on it. I am guessing here, but I would imagine that the 17/18 teams that get to play pro will enter into a contractual agreement with the league that would preclude this, but like I said, this is guesswork on my part and I can't back this up one bit. Besides, it is the work of PP and the NPPL that will have elevated the profile of the teams and players to the media and public. If they were playing at Badlandz (back to topic) they would never get noticed, so they would never feel that they were the reason people came to watch them or tuned in to see them. If PP is the Chicken, and the teams increased media profiles and earning potential in the NPPL are the egg, then the chicken came first for sure.

For the teams, I do not invision the same universe you do. I do not see the AA's or LA Ironmen (for example) ever playing in the Super 7 series, do you?
I am philosophical in that I think that if someone is doing a massive amount of work and investing a massive amount of thier own money into a project that does not make money but is for the good of all involved, then they should be able to promote thier events however they see fit in order to be successful. I think you agree, or maybe you just accept this and don't agree.

Lets keep the Q and A shorter, these long ones are daunting.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Intheno
Hey Baca,
1--I am behaving aren't I! Only because you are making intelligent statements (if a bit commie for my tastes)

2--To clear something up, I had heard that the Tampa event was re-opened at the request of Camille, and this was apparently because of the amount of extra teams that registered early. Camille cares about the NPPL teams. About 35 new teams signed up immediately after HB, meaning that when the event sold out there were teams that had played every NPPL event so far, and that are totally loyal to the league, that could not get in. Camille campaigned passionately for there to be a field added and extra refs and auxiliary staff brought in to accomodate these teams.

3--Your statements insinuate that this has been done to 'boost the coffers' of PP, but in fact it may even cost more to increase the overall size and scale of the event. I do see how you would feel this validates your point, but I don't agree with you. There are ethics involved, and I think maybe the Europeans are more influenced by ethics than Americans (I do not mean this as an insult).
But all this could be wrong of course...

4--As for Soccer. The TV stations pay the league to show the games. There is a major league sponsor.
The teams/players are not paid by the league, the clubs are funded by thier fans, ticket sales, sponsors, merchandise and endorsements.
Players have side deals to endorse products in the media, and personal appearances. Often this revenue exceeds thier wages. If the team was not in the Premier league, they would not get these opportunities, the teams feel privileged to have the opportunity to play in the Premier league, it is what all players aspire to do, as it opens doors for them and betters thier careers.

As for the teams deciding they are bigger than the league...

Besides, it is the work of PP and the NPPL that will have elevated the profile of the teams and players to the media and public.

5--For the teams, I do not invision the same universe you do. I do not see the AA's or LA Ironmen (for example) ever playing in the Super 7 series, do you?
6--I am philosophical in that I think that if someone is doing a massive amount of work and investing a massive amount of thier own money into a project that does not make money but is for the good of all involved, then they should be able to promote thier events however they see fit in order to be successful.
7--I think you agree, or maybe you just accept this and don't agree.

1--Commie? Now that's a low blow!
2--Don't doubt it for a second but it doesn't change my point.
3--I don't think I did and, in truth, that particular thought never crossed my mind. "Sufficient reason" means just that and is a perfectly neutral qualifier. (Btw, seems there will be only the originally intended 5 fields in Tampa acording to Camille's latest announcement.)
4--I think that is probably a little simplistic but the relevant element is that the relationship between the league and the participating teams (and players) is a reciprocal and beneficial one.
And my point in this respect was that however the situation is accomplished at the time PB transitions from hobby to Sport the nature of the relationships change. I think the place we aren't seeing quite eye-to-eye is over just what place and power PP holds in that altered Paintball universe. That's all.
5--seems unlikely today but tomorrow, who knows?
6--that's an interestingly qualified statement. It's registering on the Sniff-O-meter and tilting ever so slightly towards the BS setting. But thank God for the endless supply of altruism in Paintball.
7--I'll try and nuance this a bit. I have no problem with any business making every effort to be a profitable enterprise. Cynic that I am I wonder how that statement corresponds with the claim the NPPL is the players league. And, finally, redundantly, I am simply of the opinion that success in turning PB into a real sport will alter the nature of the present relationships in such a way that how it will all mesh will have to be re-thought.