Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003

[Hotpoint]

Originally posted by Neil (Campaign Power)
Sorry to correct you Hotpoint, but this information comes direct from the Met. Of which I am a serving officer. I don't know who you have have been speaking to but i got this from the legal unit this week.

The UKPSF was told some years ago by the Home Office that we were covered under the Firearms Acts. We were told as recently as 2001 as part of an inquiry we made regarding the legality of full-auto paintball markers. The Home Office specifically said we were bound by Section 5(a) of the Firearms Act 1968

Sorry but it is my belief that a Home Office ruling supersedes that of the Police. You might like to get the people you talked to to get in touch with the Federation... or the Home Office for that matter.

Certainly from a legal standpoint a direct reading of the definition of an Air Weapon under the acts would clearly include us within that definition. The Acts do cover recreational sporting equipment too, there is even mention of such things as starting-pistols for athletics

 

[Gups]

Hotpoint is right...

look HERE (last paragraph under the heading 'Charging Practice'). According to the Crown Prosecution Service ( the guys who decide if they're likely to get a conviction out of the evidence the Police provide) a paintball gun IS an airgun and is covered by the 1968 firearms act and ammendments. It certain circumstances (eg full auto or over 360 fps for a standard weight paintball) it is a prohibited weapon and would require a firearms licence. So methinks that the anti social behaviour act does indeed apply to us ballers! According to the Anti Social Behaviour Act an exception has been added to section 38 of the 1968 firearms act to allow for 14-16 yr olds to have in their possession a paintball gun, provided they are using it on private land and with the land occupier's consent and that no projectile fired by them crosses the boundary of said land. (You can find that bit in the link Bully posted at the top of this thread).
So let's be careful out there guys!

 

[Neil (Campaign Power)]

Hotpoint, If you could take the time to read it again you would hopefully see what is now covered, and therefore the difference this will mean.

As with all serving officers, I am well versed in the firearms act 1968.

I suggest you read:

S.1 Prevention of crime act 1953
S.141 Manufacture/ sale hire of offensive weapons 1988
S.4 Public order act 1986
S.4a Public order act 1986
S.1 Criminal damage act 1971

This would hopefully highlight to you the specifics of what is covered and also show you the discrepency in your argument as we are bound by S.5, THIS IS ONLY IF THE MARKER IS FULLY AUTOMATIC. As Moody guns are not allowed at tournaments, this would now mean as well as being banned the player would also be arrestable.
I am certain that i can pick out an offence from any of the above acts, involving an incident with a paintball marker without bringing our sport into disripute. However, you seem to wish to put us in the lime light and have all these offences connected to paintball?

I have consulted with the Millenium Series about my interpretation of the law and have run it past the firearms unit (SO19) of the Metropolitan police. They have so far agreed with my findings.

The inconsistancy you have may be in connection with the mention of full auto paintball markers, of which S.5(a) of the Firearms act 1968 will apply and which I have now hopefully clarified for you in the above.

As you may know, there is a broad interpretation af any new act of parliament and this will not be tested until the case enters court. I am simply giving you an interpretation of what the officers on the street are being told.

If you have any further questions, or wish to read the above legislation I will be more than happy to point you in the right direction.

 

[Hotpoint]

Originally posted by Neil (Campaign Power)
Hotpoint, If you could take the time to read it again you would hopefully see what is now covered, and therefore the difference this will mean.

<SNIP>

The inconsistancy you have may be in connection with the mention of full auto paintball markers, of which S.5(a) of the Firearms act 1968 will apply and which I have now hopefully clarified for you in the above.

Neil I am really not trying to pick a fight with you but you seem to be missing the point. We have been told specifically by the Home Office that Paintball Markers are Airguns and covered under the 1968 Act

I only mentioned Section 5(a) because it was a query about the legality of Turbo-Boards that was the last time the Home Office told us we were covered by the act. We had already been told previous to that we were covered by other provisions (for example those that determine how many foot-pounds of pressure we can operate at before falling foul of the Act).

I fully accept that you may have been advised by the Met that Paintball Markers are not classified as Air Weapons but we have been told by the Government Department the Met is accountable to that they are!

Having read the advice given to the Police by the Home Office it does not mention Paintball. However that seems more like an administrative oversight than a matter of policy given what they've told the UKPSF

Please note Guppy's link shows that the Crown Prosecution Service also considers our markers Air Weapons under the Firearms Acts. I'm really not making this stuff up

Like I said not trying to annoy you just stating what we have been told the official position is by the Government

Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing?

 

[|TPB|=SULLY=]

Originally posted by Neil (Campaign Power)
Sorry to correct you Hotpoint, but this information comes direct from the Met. Of which I am a serving officer. I don't know who you have have been speaking to but i got this from the legal unit this week.

Sully, i know it sucks but what the law is saying at the moment is that we are trusted to regulate our own sport and at this time that is considered to be sufficient.

I'm not trying to stir up an argument here, just pointing out the facts.

niel as a serving officer m8 &he has the up on everyone to the letter were the law is involved& thus givin u autonominy on what ever u would decide in the position to see the law to its letter.

fella if u run it by so 17 or detatchment 17 u got it right.am inclined to listen this chap lads.owe fella am encouraging my son toward so 19 & carrier in the met & not the army!.its cool is it not we got coppers who know there eggs

 

[Neil (Campaign Power)]

Thanks for the vote of confidence sully.

I'm just advising you what is considered to be an offence on the street. As I said, the broad interpertation can involve paintball markers, but they have to be over a certain muzzle velocity. To meet the requirements you would have to turn your marker up to reach over 380fps.

At this point you would become arrestable, under current legislation, for possessing an adapted offensive weapon, and probably numerous other offences.

Really, is there anyone out there stupid enough to try this one out?

Paintball markers are used frequently in acts involving criminal damage around the capital and we need to do all we can to prevent this small group from ruining the sport for the rest of the dedicated players who have worked so hard to get us recognised in the public eye.

If you have any doubts about my comments, feel free to contact your local old bill and ask. Make sure you speak to someone from an authourised firearms team though.

 

[|TPB|=SULLY=]

sweet & clear neil m8y& as one of my favourite books title is only the good guys wear black! steve collins. .its good that we have service men civy or ex army amongst us with the knowledge of firearms to help with threads like these& have the knoledge 1st hand.as neil said earlier& a top point i might add!


*quote*
Paintball markers are used frequently in acts involving criminal damage around the capital and we need to do all we can to prevent this small group from ruining the sport for the rest of the dedicated players who have worked so hard to get us recognised in the public eye.

 

[Gups]

OK now I'm getting confused... aren't AIR WEAPONS and PROHIBITED WEAPONS the two different classes of weapon mentioned in the Firearms act of 1968 / Anti Social Behaviour Act 2003?
Which of these two, or both, is an 'OFFENSIVE WEAPON' that Neil speaks of and how does that fit in? (I thought an offensive weapon cold be a tin of beans in a carrier bag if you were so inclined to smash someone's skull in with it, but that's not in either Act). Sorry, i'm getting off point.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, because i'd really like to clearly understand how we stand with paintball markers in the UK...

AIR WEAPONS which do not require a firearms licence are deemed to be such by using a mathematical equation that takes into account the weight of the projectile in grains and the muzzle velocity of the weapon in fps, yes? As i understand it (and has been shown somewhere on here before) if you apply this formula to an average weight .68 calibre pantball, fired at 300 fps (what most tourney markers are chronied at) the result means that paintball markers fall within the AIR WEAPONS category of these Acts. (not needing a licence) With me so far? Hotpoint you can supply the Maths i'm sure??

Then we come to PROHIBITED WEAPONS. Obviously all guns using 'bullets' as opposed to 'pellets' anything firing other than semi auto BUT ALSO some AIRGUNS (also read paintball gun) as follows...

The 1969 Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules act classifies air rifles with a muzzle energy in excess of 12 ft lbs of muzzle energy and air pistols with a muzzle energy of 6 ft lbs as "especially dangerous." Possession of "especially dangerous" air weapons requires a FAC. (Firearms Certificate).

Again Hotpoint can supply the maths but i recall reading somewhere before that once the velocity of a marker is turned up past about 360fps it means they fall into the "especially dangerous" or PROHIBITED section, requiring a licence to own one.

So in summary i would have thought that under 370 (appx) fps a marker is an Air Weapon and is covered by all sections of both Acts relating to Air Weapons. Over 360 fps (appx) a marker becomes a Prohibited Weapon under these Acts and as such you need a FAC to own one, or risk inprisonment.

EDIT:- I would add though that for safety reasons ballers choose not to increase the velocity of our markers past 300fps as that's what most goggle lenses are guaranteed resistant to... just re-read my post and it appeared i was saying were ok to shoot up to 360 fps, which of course we're not, for this reason).

If i'm wrong here please do point me to the bit of legislation that shows that a paintball marker is NOT an air weapon. Obviously this is only based on info i have picked up over the years and gained from reading the various Acts of Parliament relating to Firearms. I'm not saying i'm definitely right!!

 

[Neil (Campaign Power)]

Sorry to confuse you.

I'll say it again. Paintball guns are not classified as air weapons. I'm not trying to reason with any act of parliament as they can all be interpreted in different ways. All I can say is that I have looked into it and now know what constitutes an offence as far as the 29,000 coppers in the met are concerned.

If you need more guidance I suggest you contact a solicitor, as I can help no further. If they are air weapons the limitations placed could possibly harm all site operators in the uk and may even put some out of business. I am assured this is not the case.

I hope you have more success getting a more definitive answer than me.

 

[Flash-Bugout]

So I can go around our capital city, waving around a paintball marker, and when SO19 turn up screaming "put down the weapon" and covering me with little red dots from mp5's and the like, I can say:

"It's OK, it's a paintball marker, I don't need a firearms certificate, it's not even an air rifle"

whilst looking down the barrel at one of them, and I won't get gunned down?

I hate to agree with Hotpoint, but Markers are air guns. Heck, with the right interpretation, you can be done under section 1 (capable of over 12flbs), but that's pushing it a little I will admit.

And to further what Gups said about the CPS, to quote directly from that link, incase anybody couldnt be bothered to read it:

Paintball guns are a form of air weapon.

No offence, but the Met over-rules the Home Office and the CPS in the same way that paper beats scissors.